Difference in B&W sound


Greetings, I have a set of 804n & 803 Matrix2. I'm running a Pioneer Elite 74 Txvi with a parasound 2003 MOD & a Parasound 5250v2. the 804 have a sensitivity of 90db. & the 803s have 89db. The Matrix sound so much better, so why would this be for an older model? Could the 1db. be that much of a difference? I'm confused.
128x128danmar123
Hi Danmar123

Interesting thread subject and based on two speakers that represent a clear change in direction and sound for the company.
I have always owned a set of B&W's since the 70's and various 800 series from the 80's onward.
Some comments you can consider. A bit of fun first, facts, some history and opinion.

The fun part first.

Over there are two birds that look like two ducks.
Upon moving closer differences are revealed.
They do share genetics, as when you look under the feathers, they both show the same tag.
But when they quack they sound different. So what gives?
You are not imagining things.

Some facts direct from from B&W based on your speakers.

804n
45Hz – 20kHz ± 2dB on reference
8 ohms - 3 ohm minimum.

803 Matrix s2
26 hz - 20khz
sixth order butterworth with 25 hz cutoff with bass alignment filter.
8 ohms 3.7 ohms minimum.

The above tells me that your 803 are closer to full range. They will have a fuller sweeter sound and will go easier on your amplifier.
If, I had no idea who and what B&W was I would think that the 803 are a higher pecking order based on specs over the 804. Indeed this is the case.
So you are not comparing apples to apples here, no matter what equipment ends up in front of these speakers.
In fact two different design speakers under the same brand - more on this in a bit.

I owned the 803 s2 for a time back around '94 ? They were very nice, elegant speakers. Here is also a review from

Doug Schneider I still remember reading it and it influenced me in getting them.

I have also had both model nautilus and matrix series, for a period of time, same room/gear. In this case the 805 model.

These graphs

805 Matrix versus 805 Nautilus Stereophile Cabinet Resonances

Were lifted from Stereophile and show the results of cabinet resonances (Matrix 805 versus Nautilus 805).
A cumulative spectral-decay plot calculated from the output of an accelerometer fastened to the cabinet's side panel.

What can be seen is that even though the Nautilus 805 series claimed a Matrix construction, clearly the 805 Matrix and 805 Nautilus are not the same bodied duck.

Speaker makers make changes from one declared speaker version to the next version - just like car makers.

One needs to realize that the timing for the Matrix to Nautilus also happened when an extra big B&W company change was occurring. The 800 series Matrix line was the last line under the leadership of John Bowers. What followed for B&W was a change of leadership.

You can read more about the company changes
here

Like all businesses with new leaders / management, the (New Guy/Gal) is always anxious to institute immediate changes. They did just that. This resulted in new direction, objectives, and since this business is about speakers - a change in sound.

The opinion part.

These public chat forums are about opinions and sharing info. IMO - The new leadership took what was a smart "active speaker design" during a time of two channel audio focus, and changed the design to fit in more with the emerging multi channel Home Theater market. More bean counters were introduced. A very smart business move indeed. All B&W owners regardless of what kind of B&W they own should be happy with having such a strong company backing their speakers.

32Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis

This is the frequency response for the flagship 800d as published on the B&W info sheet. The 800 model namesake is no longer a full range speaker on its own. I have seen/heard two rooms with 800d in the past. In both cases a subwoofer/s was used.
One was a two channel audio setup. The other was a Home Theater setup.
If your thread was in the Home Theater section I would not have included this last bit of info here. As speakers with subs is the norm in HT. But this being an audiophile forum, and this post being in the speaker section, I thought it was relevant to show where the company focus went. Again IMO.

So imo assuming both of your speakers are functioning properly you are not imagining things. I also heard big differences in presentation of 2 channel music in my room between nautilus 805 and matrix 805 w/bass alignment filter as designed to be run by John Bowers.

Thanks for letting me ramble here. And don't let the gear get in the way of the music.

Cheers and good listening.
Thanks Zd & Ct, I first switched the 803 & the 804 to each others locations. without doing a new MACC I played from classical to rock & everything in between. Then I switched to #6 MACC setting, which is completely flat in all respects.I couldn't hear any difference there.
For the most part #s 3, 4 & 5 sounded better on the 803 (to me), Then I asked my Twins to come & take a listen. Played different music in all of the said above sequences, they said the 804 sounded better.
I had to run some errands & when I came back, I switched out the right channel from the both amps, then called in my Son & for the most part with all music He said the 2003 (MOD) which was the left channel sounded better even in #6 which is at FLAT response. That was a relief for me because of the monies for the amp & the MOD, I would have been SICK! I guess it comes w/age, Growing up in the 70s with my love for (rock concerts, Discos) & being a Carpenter. I'll take it all into consideration. Or like Jimmy said: but in the end these things can be a matter of preference and system synergy. Final note; I'm going to leave things as they are for now. I'm in the market for a new Pre. Just waiting for the NEW products to get their upgrades & quirks corrected. AMB Danmar
Sbbrownnw, You must be an audio genius, I think exactly the same as you on Kevlar.But not being as smart as you cost me lots of cash trying to fix the problem before it dawned on me .
Danmar123 -Then I asked my Twins to come & take a listen.

Aha..I knew I had a gut sense of a common element here.
You have two channel in your blood. :^)
You have been listening to the best natural stereo, but also the most challenging to setup, no ?
Our fraternal twins have been chiseling away at us for 20 years. My music panic room was built out shortly after they were born. Hearing those cries in stereo..I can still hear them. 8^0
Ours are just now starting to ask questions and getting curious about what is downstairs. I am starting to fear for my turntable, preamp, and records. Everything else is easily replaced.

Am holding onto the white B&W Electrostatic Speakers for my daughter. The bad boy 801's for my son.

Cheers
Ct, I always admired the B&W Electrostatic Speakers, ever since I bought my Heresy Back in the 70s. Have you looked @ the new Emotive XMC-1? I'm looking to upgrade my Pioneer, just waiting for Emo to get everything in order. Anyone else have any suggestions? AMB