Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

Why did i posted about hearing theories?

Because Amir when he gives us his gear measuments reviews , so useful it can be, and they are, implicitly state that all of what we can say about "audible qualities" of the gear is once for all contained in the limited set of measures he use critically ...

This is false, on many counts which one is evident for may people already: no measurements can replace listenings analysis... Even Amir use listening analysis even if biased by his faith in his measures results, he use at least as he said blind test...

But this measures dogma is false on a much deeper level , because there is an evident needs for anyone adding to any set of measures the complementary listening tests analysis , this DOGMA is false ALSO AND MORE DEEPLY on the account of the necessary HEARING THEORY CONTEXT where any set of measurements must be INTERPRETED... We must display this hearing theory context where this set of measures are interpreted as meaningful ..

It is not enough to measure distortion or any other design factors if we are not conscious of the hearing theory context where the "audible musical qualities and sound qualities" are rightfully defined OR NOT ...

The only one argument Amir offered me is : Dont listen Oppenheim and Magnasco , or Van Maanen or J. J. Gibson (who anyway he does not even know)... He say instead come to ASR...😊 But the discussion between Amir and me is here...

But anyway i already came to visit ASR which is an interesting informative site where luminaries as Floyd Toole came too..

The problem is not the information level of ASR... It is the ideology by zealots who harass others from different perspectives , as with audiogon , the ideology by subjectivists zealots insulting Amir...

As i said objectivist as subjectivist focus on gear not on PSYCHO-ACOUSTIC... Two tribes with the same blind spot...

But even if subjectivist may be ignorant they intuitively know that listening pay more than measuring when we pick gear or choose to tune our room as i did...i prefer to learn acoustic listenings than consult measures for an "upgrade"...Measuring is NECESSARY... Listenings is MORE THAN NECESSARY...

Anyway, rightful VERIFIED hearing theory indicate human HYPERACUITY is related to evolution and as J. J. Gibson demonstrated in visual perception , not to Fourier analysis of elementary ABSTRACT factor and their computing by the brain so much as to physical invariants relating the hearing producing body to the sound sources qualities ... The production of sound is based on PERCEPTION... And the perception is TRAINED by the production of sounds... Not by abstract measures in the Fourier context... Any musician know this...

Then audible musical qualities and sound qualities , they are REAL, not illusions, they reflect real qualities in the vibrating sound sources, and by evolution our own body was TUNED to perceive them in a productive and active way...

It is in this active and productive way we must design components of gear measuring what is necessary to PLEASE the human ears and the musicians needs, not the opposite’ submitting hunman ears to the technological babble coming from Abstracted concepts from Fourier linear and time independant models... Designer must use Fourier but overpass Fourier limited frequency domain and linear perspective by recognizing the non linear way and the time dependant way the ears identifies and qualifies the sound sources... It is in substance what Hans Van Maanen said in all his articles...And many other amplifiers designer using tubes and S.S. design too...

Mass market design standards are the floor not the ceilings of creative design... Hearing theory is the only context where any measurements deliver its meanings...

In psycho-acoustic physics and engineering is the slave of neurology and psychology not the reverse...

Amir cannot refute my post...

Marketing his site and expertise is Ok , he is an expert, and  it is an interesting site; but thats all... Sound qualities EXIST, they are not mere illusions, and no measures described them better than hearings experience, because in psycho-acoustic , as the word psycho indicate, the measures serve the act of hearing experience not the reverse... Psycho-acoustician dont design amplifier they taught to engineers how to design them in a more "musical" way...

Mass market is not high end design, and high end designers are not all fraudsters despising any measures or pretending to something without proof...

There is high designer here in Audiogon, as Van Maanen is in Netherlands... They also use psycho-acoustic measures too not only electronic components measures ...

i will stop here apologizing for my long clumsy posts in a language i master very badly on a multidisciplinary subject very deep...As asked Amir : what are your  competence ? i own none ...I only know how to read in French and in English... Alas! i never spoke or wrote english and my vocabulary is from  philosophical and science books... No fluid syntax by me then  and a kimited abstract vocabulary and a bad reading of humor or inability to catch  between the line meanings sometimes ...  😊

Anyway Amir cannot object and did not objected anything to my main point about the hearing theory context ( non linearity and Hearing time DEPENDANCY and his meaning for interpretating measures and design ) ... All his arguments where beside the main point, good arguments sometimes or rectifications ( Magnasco and Oppenheim for example is not NOVELTY, it only confirm the limits of Fourier context analysis of hearing aLREADY KNOWN FOR 60 years and Amir is right here saying that it is not really novelty information it is a CONFIRMATION indeed ) but when he say that Van Maanen get it wrong, i smile, sorry, Van Maanen know his stuff and cannot be described as "amateur" about circuits design among other things ... A physicist working in fluid theory with expertise in electronics  and as an acoustician designing his own amplifiers and speakers brand based on non linear and time dependant theory of hearing as hobby is not an audiogon subjectivist, you know what i mean ? 😉

Hilde45 is right , my posts are way too long, but at least they had a content...

Thanks to all...

Thanks...

 

 

Amir has taught me nothing about audio but his site and its "pinball wizards" (deaf, dumb and broke kids) have taught me a lot about cult psychology. When one person has a crazy idea (say, in audio reproduction, measurements matter more than how something actually sounds, or everything audible is measurable by today's instruments), they are challenged by peers and the crazy idea gets rejected and the species evolves in a pro-survival direction. But when they surround themselves with other crazy people, there’s no challenge and the idea lives on because they feel social acceptance based on that idea. This phenomenon is massively dangerous and just a small version of the same idea destroying the US democracy and eventually possibly the world, namely Trumpism.

 

I will defend Amir here...

Crazy people are here too...

What about Bidenism ?

Are you living on the cyclops planet ?

Pick a book and quit the news...

Amir has taught me nothing about audio but his site and its "pinball wizards" (deaf, dumb and broke kids) have taught me a lot about cult psychology. When one person has a crazy idea (say, in audio reproduction, measurements matter more than how something actually sounds, or everything audible is measurable by today's instruments), they are challenged by peers and the crazy idea gets rejected and the species evolves in a pro-survival direction. But when they surround themselves with other crazy people, there’s no challenge and the idea lives on because they feel social acceptance based on that idea. This phenomenon is massively dangerous and just a small version of the same idea destroying the US democracy and eventually possibly the world, namely Trumpism.

@mahgister

You're not defending anyone; you're just showing your ignorance.

For citing person B for being wrong about something does not make person A right.

If you add Bidenism  disease   to Trumpism disease, i apologize to you ...

But refrain yourself to insult Amir, i did not partake any of  his ideas about measurements meanings at all , as my long posts here demonstrated, not by insults, but by DEEP ARGUMENTS...

 Then you were right about my  ignorant political disagreement with you, but i am afraid that your post about Amir reflect ignorance more than lucidity... 

Insulting is not a good way to debate sonmeone and put him in a corner...

Thats my point...

Again i apologize for my misreading of your political standpoint...

@mahgister

You're not defending anyone; you're just showing your ignorance.

For citing person B for being wrong about something does not make person A right.