Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

 I never said that Amir mesures set is unable to catch errors in the material design of the gear... YES AMIR CAN DO IT... And we all must thank him for it...

You read me as it suit you it seems.. 😊

I said that Amir cannot claim that his set of measures are able to PREDICT all the musical REAL impressions any human listenings can pick... Calling them "illusions" because his measures are supposed to taught us everything about our  qualitative listenings ,  it is wrong... Fourier linear tools  are not enough to understand and predict what is real or not and MEANINFUL FOR US  in our perceptions of any sound event ... I only state what hearing science verify by experiment... And Van Maanen say the same as me... I am a nobody... Van Maanen is a top physicist and a designer...

 A weel designed piece of gear does not means that it will suit all needs and be perfect...Nobody can give with a limited set of measures  and predict all qualities related to all future  design... Nobody can claim that human hearings is always illusory when we analyse musical quality of musicians or of a piece of gear... We need measures and human qualitative evaluation... because saying that gear design measures qualities are necessary for musical perceived quality is right but it is not ENOUGH for predicting it in all cases and for all needs ... Design is also a creative enterprise not fixed once for all... Hearing theory evolve...  

It's all just a bunch of words unless you can concisely state what is wrong with the stereo equipment being developed and how Amir's tests do not catch these perceived errors.

mapman

So there really should be no debate. Two totally different sets of information used for two different but related purposes. Best to understand it all but no point in arguing one versus the other.

You're right, of course. But the problem is that one of the persons in the debate has an ulterior motive: The promotion of his own website and forum. So he needs drama and conflict to maintain the excitement.

@cleeds

absolutely correct

it is just too bad that our verbose friend doesn’t realize this, and continues to post and post with soooooooooooooooo many painful words, further feeding this dumpster fire

although anyone with any sense can see what this amir clown is about, how he handles himself, and would hardly be attracted to his site -- this said, we can also see that this forum is unfortunately frequented by plenty of folks with neither good sense nor restraint...

You are wise, @mapman ,

I can only speak for myself but the problem at hand for most here on this thread I think is how to best choose what to buy. Measurements are very useful for that. Explaining why human hearing is so complex is totally useless towards that end. It is useful to understand how human hearing works to help better understand why we hear what we do. But these are two totally different use cases.

I used to believe a lot of things that I now accept are not true. I used to think I knew a lot of things that I really did not, especially how we hear. That was an eye opener, and helped a lot with my first problem. The final piece in the puzzle was much harder to put in place because both ASR and the people that use it, and sites like Audiogon and the people that use it are both somewhat wrong at least in my opinion for putting that last piece of the puzzle in. Both ASR and Audiogon users think they are trying to extract every last bit of musical information they can get from a recording, and here is the important point, and nothing else.  ASR users approach this very literally and analytically. Audiogon user's think they are doing the same, but are often adding things that were not on the recording, but have convinced themselves they are getting more of the information out.

That last piece of the puzzle was accepting that enjoyable sound from speakers is not just about hearing what is on the recording, but using your system to create a simulation of what a live event may have sounded like. Not did sound like, but may have sounded like. Amir often says, look, these two things sound exactly the same. I accept those conclusions. Amir often says this level of distortion is unacceptable. If you are only trying to extract exactly what information is on the recording, he is correct. If you are trying to simulate a live environment which I think many audiophiles are doing without realizing it or accepting how they are doing it, then I don't think this conclusion is correct.

It is my understanding, albeit limited, that because much of today's pop music is mixed for headphones, that this totally screws up this paradigm.

@mahgister Amir just called and he would love it if you posted ALOT more on this topic over on ASR. He thinks it would add great value and everyone would welcome the spirited debate.