How tall do you like your images?

@deep_333

thank you for updating your system info. certainly some big steps up from what i had been able to find looking back at your posting. congrats on your well thought out systems.

i might recommend doing an Audiogon system page so other readers of your strongly made posts can see where you are coming from.

which does not change my basic points, which is that ultimate 2 channel surpasses multi-channel music. and i feel that dsp, however neatly applied, does not compete at the highest levels to a pure analog signal path fully executed room and system for music only. but at less than an all out effort, dsp does enter into high level performance for music. ultimately dsp is a band aid for problems. which are not always existing.

just my 2 cents, YMMV. lots of blood has been spilled discussing that question. like religion, no one ever changes their mind. if you are ever in the Seattle area, you are welcome to visit and listen for your self. i hope it happens.

Trinnov verses BACCH? i’d need to do more research about it. Trinnov is targeted at Movie Soundtracks with object based Atmos mixes primarily. it’s not ideal for tricking up conventional 2 channel music content. hard to say how that might go. i don’t ask my Trinnov to do that. but BACCH verses my conventional (analog and digital) 2 channel sources and signal path.....it’s not at that level.

and i own 12,000 records, 300 reel to reel master dubs, do lots of streaming high rez and own 20tb of 2 channel files. there is so little interesting multi-channel music content it’s hard to base my system building efforts on it.

@mikelavigne , My post was not aimed at dissing anyone’s gear. As you may have noted, i am dissing all my higher end stereo gear as well because i experience all the limitations of stereo gear in execution. When you deploy the BACCH, it is no longer considered purist stereo. imo. But, I haven’t seen anyone going BACCH-less after they have experienced it. On the same note, who gets to draw the line on what is purist stereo or otherwise? Even any stereo DAC (high end or not), and especially if FPGA based makes the rig ’impurist stereo’ at that point. Hence, I’ll go as impure as it needs to be in pursuit of audio nirvana.

There are many brilliant guys who got together at Dolby, DTS, Auro and more recently Sony ( w/ 360 reality audio), Yamaha, etc to deliver immersive/3d object based audio. Their efforts were not in vain, they are not all a bunch of dummies and the 90 year old stereo is still not the looming overlord for high fidelity. The issue is that the same ethos that a hifi enthusiast applies to a hifi stereo rig never gets applied to a multichannel rig (for music listening) and then it gets dismissed as some lame technology for movies. It sure isn’t. Even with a larger room like mine, I can only optimally place the bare minimum for 3D object based audio, i.e., 5 bed layer and 4 heights. I even drop that to 2 heights many times. Sure, I could stuff 6 crappy in-ceiling speakers for heights and keep adding bedlayer speakers if i wanted to (would be good enough for movies!). But, the sound degrades in a hifi multichannel application when optimal placement is compromised (no matter what compensation is done with dsp) and the sweet count for #of bed layer speakers, etc is exceeded. Further, there is such a thing as specific directivity requirements for height channels in 3D object based sound, not to mention that they need to be very closely matched in frequency, powerhandling, etc with the bed layer. When one applies the same ethos for physical room treatments in a multichannel application (as they would for analog stereo), the heavy handedness of these processors (RSC filters, etc can be nullified). Further, one shouldn’t be accepting results of any auto-cal as is, at all (no matter how great the processor, it is still dumb). The latter is for movie usage by the entry level user.

I live about 30 minutes from one of the best acoustic halls in the US Midwest where I experience many an orchestra, wind ensemble, string quartet etc on a fairly regular basis (no lousy PA involved). When I am seated at the nirvana spot (booked well in advance), it sounds nothing like stereo, I repeat, ’nothing like stereo’ and sounds a whole lot like 3d object based audio w.r.t how the soundfield is produced (very much akin to sound objects materializing inside a 3d dome). In fact, at the last wind ensemble i experienced, I was constantly looking behind me for the first 10 minutes to see if there were surrounds and back heights somewhere. This is all a bit hard to articulate, unnecessarily wordy on a thread like this and must be experienced instead.

BACCH Choueri filters is the future of listening...

Only reading his articles is enough to be sure of it...

There is NO TIMBRE degradation in the process...

@mikelavigne 

Nailed it.

there is more to music than soundstaging and spatial clues. there is not only timbre, but tonal density, flow, scale, weight, authority, bloom, bass articulation and tone leading edge cohesiveness, and decay. there is cohesion at high SPL’s. and all together the realism, suspension of disbelief, emotive content and human touch.

as far as what digitizing and application of dsp does to an analog signal, the only way to know is to compare it directly to the pure analog signal. and highest level vinyl, tape or even digital contains musicality that gets lost at each adc/dac stage.

Bernie Grundman said it best, every time a signal is processed digitally something is lost, and there is no recovery. you might add something, or change something, but you also lost something.

nothing is free.

no doubt there are great things with dsp and perfect situations for dsp.

when i see very high level analog sources in systems with these ultra dsp processes i pay close attention. but when i don’t, then the result is not that relevant to me. the proper reference is missing. i have top level analog, and also the highest level digital too.

and let’s face it, whether BACCH dsp digital, or all analog, these are all very high level music making processes. this is not good and bad, this is all degrees of good. but splitting hairs is what we do in this hobby. what we are passionate about.