The Snob Appeal Premium


I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome".  Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ?  Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' !  Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product. 

Here's an anecdotal example: 

I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare. 

I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application. 

In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish. 

I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights  premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit".  I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola". 

Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine. 

I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room. 

Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse. 

128x128Ag insider logo xs@2xyesiam_a_pirate

This has been a fun thread. Lots of valuable ideas too! The guys that took the time to consider the OP and the guys who spent some time to discuss DIY speakers- cheers to you!   I enjoy seeing those of a certain *ahem* persuasion attack, disparage, ridicule anything they have not endorsed is a pleasure too.....one fool suggested if you don't agree with his perspective get a boat or a Harley. Funny that- as if the guys here only had one hobby and only one place to spend their time and money.  Mom's basement gets cold in the winter for the hater guys LOL! 

On DIY speakers:  I'm amazed at the quality of drivers that you can buy for not much money compared to the cost of a "brand affirmed" product. GR, Graveson stuff makes me want to get in the shop this January and get some low cost high results education on subs. Even if you shrew up the kit you are more educated and better off. 

I'm also amazed at those who are consumed with class envy and system envy. These are miserable humans who cannot enjoy the subtle, wonderful, exciting parts of life. Sad, really. Life's a beyatch and then you die- and off to your reward- Forever. Sucks to be you indeed. 

Thanking you all again for the fun, education and info!  and to the haters here: Kiss my foot :)

@mahgister (IMHO) recognizing ‘good sound’ on a superficial level is about hearing sounds you’re most familiar with. So human vocals. Maybe an instrument if you’re a musician. How does that sound coming out of the speakers compare to the ‘real thing’? You may entirely disagree with me and value bass or soundstage or micro details. There’s no wrong answer. Only snobs think that they have the right answer. It’s subjective I guess. 

Yes, this is some painfully superficial information you’d probably find on ‘Wiki How’. But the surge of salesman audio reviews praising the heck out of terribly artificial sounding speakers such as the Klipsch RP600M has me worried. I am such a snob in that regard! Yikes…
 

Aaaand, I am a snob for single driver speakers without crossovers. I think that they do vocals and guitars better. Everyone has biases. But I heard some 2 way speakers with great results and I don’t know what to believe anymore. 

I try to not be either a snob, nor an a/h....lifes' too short.

I know that I can be the latter, spouse occasionally accuses self of such...and she's a decent judge of that....when she's not being one as well, or acting as such... ;)

Snobby?  Perhaps, not intentional, but granted the potential...

We all have preferences, 'imho', feet in the concrete rockrib stance stuff.

At days' end or dawns' early light, if any given pair of us can concede that the other

is allowed their conceptions, mis- or otherwise...

It's all Good, as it should be. 

Play often. Play LOUD.

Just keep playing... ;)

....but just Listen...

 

My answer will be complex because you are right and wrong at the same times..

Yes we own our own ears inner filters each different from other person , our heads dimensions and ears distance and geometry differ too...

Our personal listening and hearing history differ too..

Then we had each one of us our biases ... You are right on this ...

( it is the reason why, ultimately small room acoustic COULD BE tailored made for ONE pair of ears and is very different in acoustic application from great Hall acoustic, as headphone measured for Smyth realizer or for the Choueri Filters must be very specifically tailored made experience for one specific pair of ears )

But where you are not completely right here, it is by the omission of acoustic and psycho-acoustic laws or principles which are the same for everyone..

The only way to learn which is timbre , apart for recognizing a good timbre subjectively by memory and training , is learning how to control the acoustic factors modifying it... it is the same for all other aspects, as dynamics, transients, imaging differentiation , soundstage varying dimensions , holographic volume of sound source , immersiveness etc each of these factors cannot be understood if we do not learn, not only how to recognize them, but how to modify them...

How can we experience immersiveness, the most important factor with Timbre, which is a very specific acoustic factors defined by ratios of timing, and distance , and ratios of reflective/diffusive/absorbing surfaces, and relative to the pressure zones specific dynamic in the room , and balance ratios between sound sources and the listener position , etc ?

It is the reason why it is acoustic and psycho-acoustic which is at the center of audio experience FIRST , not the gear electrical performance as Objectivist claims erroneously or apparent sound performance and qualities and their price tags as subjectivist claims erroneously ...

Snobism is based on two factors : ignorance of what is really important and exclusion of those who dont recognize the arbitrary factors constituting snobism as a selected club where some sheep thinking around a secondary factor is elevated to idol status...Objectivist and subjectivism may become snobism clubs based on different orientation which can be meaningful when relativized but whose meaning is erased in quarrelling meaninglessness..

Then acoustician cannot be snobs nor could we think they are only because they know better than objectivists or subjectivists..

The right answer in audio is this one : use your ears to verify information and to train them but base your journey on experiments more than just purchases of consumers good ...

 

 

«I snob myself a lot »--Groucho Marx 🤓

 

«Sound are subjective qualitative experience of sound sources and informative one about localization and time and they are not reducible to be mere waves or illusions»--Anonymus acoustician

 

«I see better eyes closed when playing»--Harpo Marx🧐

 

 «Sounds are like animals in a room , i track them »--Indian drum player

 

 

@mahgister (IMHO) recognizing ‘good sound’ on a superficial level is about hearing sounds you’re most familiar with. So human vocals. Maybe an instrument if you’re a musician. How does that sound coming out of the speakers compare to the ‘real thing’? You may entirely disagree with me and value bass or soundstage or micro details. There’s no wrong answer. Only snobs think that they have the right answer. It’s subjective I guess.