KLaudio or Degritter Mark II

@antinn Thanks ... I think ... for turning me on to that post by Wizzard.  I suffered through nearly all of it.  That man is in need of help!  The Arizona Mike tip, however, was considerably more helpful!  The video afforded a good real-life look and sense of the operational footprint the KLAudio requires, much more informative than photos of the machine on the web.

I tend to do record cleaning in spurts.  My modus operandi has involved setting up the Knosti on the kitchen counter and shuttling records to & from my US machine, set-up on a work bench in the basement.  After an afternoon's activity, generally 15 records worth, I break down, clean and put everything away until the next foray.  I don't save or re-use cleaning fluids or leave same in the respective vessels.

The KLAudio certainly seems like a fantastic bespoke US record cleaning machine.  However, given its size and operational footprint, seems like it's better suited to a more industrial approach (i.e.  more sustained, lengthier cleaning sessions).  It's easy to see how critical such a machine would be for an operation like Arizona Mike's record shop and record cleaning service.

I continue to struggle with more practical, cost-effective alternatives for my purposes and am considering the following, which would involve purchasing an Elma Sonic P60H, another Knosti, a vacuum machine or combination thereof.  As always, your comments & suggestions would be most welcome.

1. Solution of distilled water + 0.01% or 0.015% Tergitol 15-S-9 + 1% Alconox Liquinox in the Knosti as a pre-cleaning step.
2. Use of the Elma Sonic P60H with distilled water + 0.01% to 0.15% Tergitol 15-S-9.
3. After degassing, run 2 or 3 records (2 would achieve a 1.25" separation; 3 would be 11/16") set to run between 31C and 35C but no warmer than 35C at ? RPM for ? minute cycles.  (Questions here are:  how many records would be best, 2 or 3, at what RPM and duration of cleaning cycles?  I've read that keeping the cleaning temperature between 31C and 35C for no more than 6- to 9-minute cleaning cycles is optimum in a machine like the P60H and anything longer could cause damage.)
4. I'm not sure how to approach an immediate final rinse with distilled water.  I'm thinking of transferring the records immediately over to my present 40kHz US machine for this.  However, I'd have the same questions here regarding heat setting, spacing, RPM or, more importantly, the advisability of this at all.  If lengthier than 6-to-9-minute cleaning cycle in a P60H is not advisable, maybe exposing the records to additional US bombardment is not a good idea?  Maybe it would be best to purchase another Knosti for this?
5. This leaves the drying dilemma.  Records would be sopping wet after a final rinse in a Knosti, making air drying in a rack and use of microfiber cloths less appealing.  A vacuum machine would help but this approach would involve purchasing another Knosti and a good reasonably priced vacuum machine.  This puts a dent in the cost-effectiveness quotient; not to mention making the whole cleaning process seem like an episode of the Keystone Cops!  Previously, my approach was to raise the records out of the US tank fluid and run them on the spit or skewer at 5 RPM for 15 minutes.  Not only did this allow the tank fluid to cool but the heat rising above the tank served to dry the records almost completely.  After this, I sandwiched the records between LP-sized microfiber cloths to remove whatever drops of residual moisture might be left and stave off dust motes, transferred them to the Knosti drying rack and covered them with microfiber cloths until they were completely dry.

@oldaudiophile,

Solution of distilled water + 0.01% or 0.015% Tergitol 15-S-9 + 1% Alconox Liquinox in the Knosti as a pre-cleaning step.

Please do not get creative with the Tergitol and Liquinox - there is no need.  Just use the Liquinox which is a combination of anionic and nonionic surfactants for pre-clean.  However, only use 0.5% Liquinox - less carryover to the US machine.  The 1% is good for manual clean with tap-water rinse.  Otherwise, only use the Knosti for really gross records.  

Use of the Elma Sonic P60H with distilled water + 0.01% to 0.15% Tergitol 15-S-After degassing, run 2 or 3 records (2 would achieve a 1.25" separation; 3 would be 11/16") 

Adjust the Tergitol concentration to 0.0135 to 0.0150%.  When you clean records with the Elmasonic recalling what I said previous here is a procedure:

Heat the water to about 28C and then secure the heaters.  Then spin at 0.5 rpm (2-min for 1-revolution), and wash with two phases. The first phase is run at 80% power for 6, 8 or 10 minutes (3, 4 or 5 complete revolutions) using the P60's auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 6, 8 or 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power.  The ultrasonics will heat the water and after 12, 16 or 20-min total, the bath may be 35C, but stay less than about 38C (100F).  With spin speed at 0.5 rpm, adjusting time in 2-min increments gets whole numbers (no fractions) of evolutions.

I'm not sure how to approach an immediate final rinse with distilled water.  I'm thinking of transferring the records immediately over to my present 40kHz US machine for this. 

Use the 40kHz US machine for rinsing similar to what @tima does here:  tima's DIY RCM | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com).  The rinse cycle at 0.5-rpm would be 6 or 8-min with no heat other than what the US provide.  Then allow the records to air dry in a clean area - placing a HEPA filter (does not need to be a large unit) in the 'clean area' will limit the amount of incidental lint that drops on the records while drying.  To speed up drying, you can try adding 0.003% Tergitol to the rinse tank.  This reduces the surface tension of the water enough to wet the record, and when you remove the records, the amount of water that is on the record should be less, ergo they dry faster.

Take care,

If you search this forum, @wizzzard who is a chemist, did a very good job of analyzing LAST.

That man is in need of help!

That is remarkably charitable, Neil. And as for help being needed, I recognise a fellow autistic, and would help but it is not wanted in any shape or form: indeed, it is repulsed. All I can do (maybe any of us) is to ensure I enjoy several hours of clean vinyl for every minute spent on that thread.

@antinn First and foremost, thanks very much again for your continued guidance!

A few questions:

As I think I may have mentioned earlier, most of my core collection of LP records are already relatively clean.  Should I avoid using the Knosti & Liquinox pre-clean step for those, altogether, or does that matter at all?  I don't mind doing this pre-clean step at all, unless it might be detrimental or superfluous.  I do have some very old records I inherited from my folks when they passed (e.g.  33's and 78s of Sinatra, Como, Mario Lanza, etc.).  Maybe the Knosti pre-clean step should be relegated to those?    

By "and then secure the heaters", do you mean heat the tank water to 26C and then shut off the heat for US cleaning, as the US activity heats the tank water anyway?

Your feedback, as I understand it, seems to indicate that a 20-minute total US cleaning cycle in the Elma Sonic P60H would be safe.  Do I understand that correctly?  Should 20-minute cleaning cycles be reserved for very dirty records or does that matter?

Thanks so much!

@oldaudiophile,

As I think I may have mentioned earlier, most of my core collection of LP records are already relatively clean.  Should I avoid using the Knosti & Liquinox pre-clean step for those, altogether, or does that matter at all?  I don't mind doing this pre-clean step at all, unless it might be detrimental or superfluous.  I do have some very old records I inherited from my folks when they passed (e.g.  33's and 78s of Sinatra, Como, Mario Lanza, etc.).  Maybe the Knosti pre-clean step should be relegated to those?    

If your records are reasonably clean, meaning they are visibly clean - yes you can skip the pre-clean with Liquinox.  But doing the pre-clean step is not going to harm.

Now a big caveat, everything I have been discussing is for vinyl records, not lacquer/shellac which are very different, and I have very limited knowledge.  What little I known is here is the Library of Congress procedure: Cleaning Lacquer Discs — NEDCC. Cleaning lacquer/shellac records is not something I have dived into. But I am confident that Tergitol 15-S-9 can be safely substituted for Tergitol 15-S-7. In 2007, sd_bp_07.pdf (indiana.edu) recommended: Lacquer (nitrocellulose laminate) discs are cleaned using a solution that is 0.25 parts Tergitol 15-S-3, 0.25 parts Tergitol 15-S-9, 98.5 parts deionized water, and 1-part clear ammonia.

The blend Tergitol 15-S-3 (which is insoluble in water) & Tergitol 15-S-9 (which is soluble in water) are the constituents of the commercial product Tergikleen. I am not a fan of Tergikleen (which my book discusses in Chapter IX) because of the insoluble Tergitol 15-S-3 ingredient.

But let me call your attention to these 'details' from the paper/book sd_bp_07.pdf (indiana.edu):

-The advantage of the ammonia is that it minimizes the amount of mechanical scrubbing required to remove palmitic acid as well as minimizes the amount of exposure of the laminate to water, as water can cause the laminate to swell and delaminate.

-Discs with a compromised lacquer layer (i.e. cracks or signs of delamination) should not be cleaned with an aqueous solution as this will accelerate delamination.

-Lacquer discs receive a final rinse with a solution that is 99.75 parts deionized water and 0.25 parts Disc Doctor solution. The Disc Doctor solution is used to lower the surface tension, allowing water to push down into the grooves for more thorough rinsing. I would avoid this practice. Not knowing what is in Disc Doctor solution this is not smart. You could just add 0.003% Tergitol 15-S-9 (this is less than 1-drop/Liter-DIW) and get the same reduced surface tension results with little risk of residue.

Beyond what I have addressed above, which would apply to manual cleaning with a label protector that is pretty much the extent of my knowledge. However, for manual cleaning with a label protector I would recommend using Tergitol 15-S-9 at only 0.1% instead of 0.5% which is way more than necessary. Additionally, I would recommend the Record Doctor brush with initial tap water and then DIW spray like the book says. For use with a vacuum-RCM, I would avoid the 1% ammonia and just use Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.05% (as specified in the book) to avoid any corrosion of the vacuum-RCM and ease of rinse. Records that showed need for the 1% ammonia (+Tergitol 15-S-9) would best be cleaned manually with the label protector. I would recommend for the Groovemaster, the modifications I address on page 33 of the book for ease of use.

Otherwise, I would need to research in much greater detail to provide any additional guidance. Lacquer/shellac records used a variety of fillers and how each may respond to any kind of cleaning process that exposes the edge to extended periods of immersion (such as UT) would need to be considered and inspection procedures developed to allow segregating those at risk of delamination. There hopefully would be info available that differentiates the filler used by each pressing plant/label. If UT was to even be a consideration, it would need to be 80-kHz or above, at low power (the variable power of the Elmasomic P-series would be best) and probably near room temperature (a pump/radiator could control the temperature).   But I am no longer retired, and I do not have the time to do a deep dive into cleaning lacquer/shellac records to where I would be confident in my recommendations.

By "and then secure the heaters", do you mean heat the tank water to 26C and then shut off the heat for US cleaning, as the US activity heats the tank water anyway?

Yes.

...it, seems to indicate that a 20-minute total US cleaning cycle in the Elma Sonic P60H would be safe.  Do I understand that correctly? 

20-min is safe at a spin speed of 0.5-rpm and at a max temperature not to exceed 100F.  For reference based on a user experience, 20-min at a spin speed of 0.15 rpm reaching a temperature of 122F is not safe.

Should 20-minute cleaning cycles be reserved for very dirty records or does that matter?

That depends on how clean the record is to start and how many records you are cleaning - is it 1, 2, or 3.  The dirtier the record and/or the more records you clean at-once, the higher the bath load, the longer the duration.  I the records are dirty, cleaning 3 at a time is not recommended.  But at this point, I stop making any definitive recommendation, and let you do your own experimentation to develop your own process.  

Good Luck

Neil