KLaudio or Degritter Mark II

@oldaudiophile, 

".in a two-tank protocol employing my present 40kHz US machine and the Elma Sonic P60H, would using a 6L 180W, 132kHz cleaning power, 200W heating power, instead of the P60H achieve better results?"

Recall that as the kHz increases, the power required for cavitation increases. The Degritter 120kHz while using a small tank (that requires more power) is 300W and 1.4-L = (300W/1.4L) = 214 W/L.

Your 132-kHz, 6L 180W is the same power as a 40kHz unit = (180W/6L) = 30 W/L.  The Elmasonic P60 PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com) 37/80-kHz shows an effective power of 180-W, but with a peak ultrasonic performance of 720W and based on user experience the power is real - it gets into the tank.

What do you think?

@antinn Can't argue with math!  Thanks, once more!  Now, time to take a good look at the P60H operation manual.

All the best!

@antinn I’ve read the Elma Sonic P60H operation manual. Judging from its published dimensions, the CleanerVinyl components that I use with my 40kHz UCM will fit onto the P60H with one exception (i.e. the pump/filter). The P60H carrying handles are mounted too high, near the top of the tank. However, CleanerVinyl has a relatively inexpensive bracket (i.e. $59) designed to fit the P60H.

My quandary, at the moment, has to do with the following:

"Note: with the dual frequency you should secure the pump/filter when operating at 37kHz (depending on # or records) but then operate the pump/filter at 80kHz.

1. The general process for the Elamasonic P-series is the first phase is run at 80% power for 10 minutes under the auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power or 100% in pulse power."

If I understand this correctly, using my CleanerVinyl pump/filter with the P60H would be virtually impossible, using this frequency change mode of operation. As such, I’m wondering if it might be more practical, from an operational standpoint, to avoid using this frequency change mode and stick to an initial fixed low frequency (i.e. 37kHz to 40kHz) 10-minute cleaning or pre-cleaning cycle at 0.5 RPM with (or without) the pump/filter in place and then switch to a fixed 80kHz final cleaning cycle at 0.5 RPM with the pump/filter in place, keeping tank fluid temp between ... say, 27C and 31C and certainly no higher than 37C. If so, by using a minimal amount of Tergitol 15-S-9 during the P60H US cleaning process (e.g. 0.004%) to eliminate the need for a rinse step and help with air drying the records, I don’t see a need to continue using the 40kHz UCM if I continue using my pre-cleaning step with the Knosti, distilled water and 0.5% Liquinox. I suppose I could use it for a final 5- or 6-minute rinse step at 0.5 RPM, using distilled water only with no heat setting. However, the argument against this would be the hassle involved in transferring the CleanerVinyl components (i.e. record lifter; motor; pump/filter) from one UCM to the other. Purchasing another set of CleanerVinyl components to accommodate two UCM makes no cost-effectiveness sense. I’d might as well just buy a Degritter, at this point, and use the 40kHz UCM as my final rinse step. As I’ve done previously, lifting the record(s) out of the UCM tank after a cleaning cycle and increasing the rotational speed to 5 RPM for 15 minutes or so, gets the records almost completely dry.

My alternative methodology, without the P60H, would be the following:

1. Use the Knosti for a pre-clean step in a room temp solution of distilled water + 0.5% Liquinox.
2. Use the 40kHz 6-liter UCM I have with a solution of distilled water + 0.004% Tergitol with the machine set to operate between 27C and 31C and certainly no higher than 37C for a 15 to 30 minute degas cycle.
3. Clean 2 records in the machine (which would be spaced 1.25" apart) at 0.5 RPM at the same heat setting(s) for 15-to-20-minute cleaning cycles.
4. Lift records out of the tank solution, increase motor rotation speed to 5 RPM and let them rotate just above the tank for 15 or 20 minutes or so until completely or almost completely dry. The heat rising from the US tank helps with the drying process.
5. If records aren’t completely dry, set in stand near a HEPA air cleaner until completely dry.

As you indicated in a previous post, the extensional or maybe even existential question, of course, is which modus operandi would likely yield the best or better result. Incidentally, my "better" barometer here is audio fidelity, which is, admittedly, subjective. Generally speaking, I’m assuming the cleaner the record, the better the audio fidelity will or can be. I’m also assuming, given these two different record cleaning methodologies, it’s quite possible the comparative audio fidelity results might be very slight and maybe even imperceptible to most audiophiles.

Once again, thanks so much for your guidance!

@oldaudiophile,

I am not sure of your problem.  Do not operate the pump/filter during the 1st 10-mins when then tank is switching between 37 & 80 kHz and then run the pump/filter for the next 10 min which is at fixed 80 khz.  At continuous 80-kHz, there is no problem with running the pump/filter.  

Otherwise, WRT your alternate process, the 15-20 minutes in the 40kHz tank for is probably overkill, the general consensus is that much beyond 12-min is of limited benefit.  Also, with the tank at 37C (98.6F) the humidity above the tank will be high, so drying will be compromised.  But after all is said and done, this is your process.  At this point I have provided you all the info I can provide.  If you want to use your alternate procedure absent the P60, then try it and see what happens. 

Good Luck,

Neil

@oldaudiophile,

Re-reading your post, I am not sure why you feel your CleanerVinyl pump/filter with the P60H would be virtually impossible.  The pump/filter is (electrically) OFF during the first 10-min while the tank is in auto frequency change mode.  Then during the next step, 10-min at 80-kHz-pulse mode the pump/filter is (electrically) ON.  With a 6L tank and a 1.5 lpm pump, the tank half-life is 2.8-min, and after 10-min, the tank will be filtered 91%. At the end of the 10-min, you would want to run the pump/filter for another 4-min so that the tank was ~97% filtered for the next set of records.

As far as purchasing another set of CleanerVinyl components to accommodate two UCMCleaner which would cost some $800, there are some options. 

Isonic offers a 1-micron filter FTR01-P | iSonic® 1 Micron In-Water Filter for P4875II+MVR, P4875-NH+M – iSonic Inc. for $60 that would probably work with the 40-kHz as a rinse tank.  There are not a lot of details for this filter, but the rinse tank is not as important for filtration, and for the rinse tank you would run the pump with the ultrasonics.  

There are many inexpensive spinners such as this one for $70 - Amazon.com: WEWU ROUNDS 12" LP 7" EP Vinyl Records Bracket for 6L Ultrasonic Cleaner Simple Version(No Ultrasonic Cleaner) : Electronics.  The 1-6 rpm range is fine.  When rinsing it is really ultrasonic assisted rinsing, and spinning a bit fast is OK.  The only disadvantage is that you would need to remove the records from the CleanerVinyl spinner and then place them on the rinse-tank spinner, and your dry method where you raise the records is not available.  However, there is a more expensive version $170 that can do that - Amazon.com: WEWU LP Vinyl Record Brackets for Ultrasonic Cleaning 1-5 Records Per Batch Raising Descending Auto-Drying(No Ultrasonic Cleaner) : Electronics

So, there are some lower cost options if you wanted to go with a 2-tank system.  

Otherwise, the P60 with its dual frequency and variable power is a 2-step process, with each 6-10 minutes, for a total of 12-20 min.  If using a single step, such as your 40-kHz, you don't try to equal the same total process time, only the time for one-step which is why I said not much benefit above 12-min recalling you want to use even numbered time at 0.5 rpm for even record exposure.

Good Luck,

Neil