Radical toe in once more


Hi all. I have bi-directional floorstanders, two way speakers with identical treble and woofer on the front and the back. Half of the sound goes to the front drivers, half to the back.

The toe-in of this type of speaker is very influenced by how the back sound wave and the reverberant sound behaves. These speakers often sound good with radical toe-in due to better room acoustics with a longer back wave towards the corners.

This is a huge topic, and my question is more restricted: what happens with the front firing sound?

Is there an "inherent" problem with radical toe in, when the main sound from the front drivers cross in front of the listener, instead of the more conventional setup where the crossing point is behind the listener - and if so, what?

Is this (potential) minus factor in fact low, if the listener is just a foot or so back of the crossing point?

 

Ag insider logo xs@2xo_holter

Six feet is good! Do I assume correctly that they are also six feet forward of the wall behind them (front wall)? If so you're really good. FWIW this distance allows separation of the reflected  and the direct signal which give you a clearer sound of both.  

Yes you are correct, they have ample space behind them. I measured: 6,5 foot from the middle of the front drivers to the wall behind them, 5,5 from the back drivers. I know that they may sound even a bit better half a foot or so more out from the wall, but we have some living room compromises...

@newbee wrote: "I see a lot of folks who think crossed axis’ compromise the sound stage."  Yes, I've recently read some of this myself. 

"What I think they hear are 1st reflection points and think that is part of a normal sound stage. They think in-phase sound outside of the speaker edges is a norm and if they don’t hear it something with there stuff or set up is wrong. Not so, it is right!"

I understand the first part. With radical toe in, the 1st reflection points are 'missing', relatively speaking. My experience also. And some folks miss that, just from habit. But I don't quite get your further point, about phase.

My speakers are bipoles, and as I understand it, all the sound - from the back as well as the front drivers - is in-phase. Dipoles / open baffle speakers are different, since the back sound is out of phase. What I observe with my speakers is that the sound from the sides of the speaker is much lower than from the front and the back. But I think it stays in phase.

I was referring to the recorded sound. Sounds recorded in phase will appear between your two speakers, not outside of your speakers. Sounds recorded out of phase will appear from all about your room, but not focused between your two speakers.

Listen to a test record which has music recorded in phase and out of phase. When you listen to a cut recorded in phase you should hear nothing outside the speakers (in a well set up system which has no 1st reflection point reinforcement). Likewise when you play a cut with no in phase sound you will lose that focused sound we all love. (Recording engineers do play with phase when recording music which can give an enhanced sound stage.) Getting your system set up properly entails getting reproduced sounds, either in phase or out of phase, as put down in the disc. The Sheffield/XLO Test & Burn-in Disc has such cuts with an explanation. With this and some other cuts it can be quite helpful in setting up your system. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the performance of your speakers with which you seem to be concerned. That is an entirely different issue. 

Newbee, thanks again, I get it now.

What you say about recorded sound is mostly known to me, although it is nice to get it so well and briefly formulated.

On one level I agree that in and out of phase recorded sound has nothing to do with speaker performance. Yet the capability of speakers to reproduce out of phase as well as 'ordinary' in phase sound comes into the picture too. So, for example, how well are my speakers able to reproduce cases like Roger Waters: Amused to death, where some out of phase 'mystic mix' production is able to recreate sound not just floating around, but locate it precisely beside you, and even a bit behind you.