DAC DIRECT IN TO AMPLIFIER OR TO PREAMPLIFIER

@ghdprentice 

You put together a system without one and you don’t know what you are missing. And this missing stuff is often the most important stuff…

Very true, both wrt to preamps and with other stuff too.  In my case it was dual subs, which I should have added years ago.

So, without a preamp you often get amazing detail but somewhat flat lifeless presentation. 

Not everyone has the same experience with loss of depth and dynamics, but it was mine with the 4 or 5 resistive passives I have tried in my system.  The internal volume control of the Metrum Adagio DAC was better sounding and certainly not flat or lifeless, but it leaned more toward a clean/detailed sound without providing the degree of body and rich tone I enjoy.  In addition to the Adagio, the only other passive solutions I have tried where that "somewhat flat lifeless presentation" didn't occur used Slagle autoformer volume controls (AVC) but those two units had their own sound that, while nice, I ultimately moved on from.

Regarding DAC volume controls and loss of bits, here is some reading material explaining how bits can be lost in some situations.  The article also includes a couple of illustrations by ESS showing how analog volume controls lower both the signal and the noise while digital volume controls can lower the signal while leaving the noise unaffected, which has the effect of reducing the S/N ratio.  

Not all DAC volume controls are the same.  The approach practiced by Cees Ruitenberg at Metrum and at Sonnet (now together under one roof!) involves changing the volume by varying the reference voltage of the converters, which, in conjunction with an algorithm they employ, preserves S/N.

In the end, as mentioned by others here, you really need to try things out for yourself and preferably in your own system with the music you listen to.

I also use a Lumin X1 directly into the Lumin AMP. SQ improved after removing an excellent Rogers High Fidelity KWM-88 integrated amplifier modified to use KT 170 tubes.

I tried many different connects from AMP to streamer and found that made an audible difference too. Not really news.

The Lumin(s) use Leedh Processing Volume Control. No lost bits.

Does this mean than some/all Lumin’s do not need a preamp? I’m not touching that one. Far more experienced than me forum members @blisshifi ​​​​@worldwidewholesales who have benefited from having listened to far more equipment and know their stuff should be heeded.

@ghdprentice Indeed, well said.  It would be hard to put together a system just by reading on the internet and that is what some people do.  Others try to do a lot of auditioning either in showrooms or using liberal return policies.  I do it another way:  I am good at buying and selling used equipment.  The key is never to buy junk.  So I buy a lot of equipment and resell the equipment that doesn't suit me. 

Jerry 

@carlsbad2 + 1 

I do it another way:  I am good at buying and selling used equipment.  The key is never to buy junk.  So I buy a lot of equipment and resell the equipment that doesn't suit me. 

Mahgister- "you don't know what you don't  know". In this case, this doesn’t have anything to do with system synergy, IMO it has everything to do with the quality of the dac and the preamp.

A lot of dacs are noisy when using as a preamp so a preamp is a requirement. Some dacs like mine have attenuation to compensate if there is any noise going directly to the amp. 
 

Before ps audio came out with their BHK preamp, Paul’s recommendation was to go directly to the amp from their dac. I had a new $5000 preamp a few years ago that I used with my dac, and other sources. I took the preamp out and went directly to the amp, played with attenuation, and the sound quality was the same, so I sold the preamp. The BHK preamp might be better than the preamp I had, but when looking into making the dac sound best, most of the conversations I saw was to get the dac to perform best in its sweet zone, and this involved using or not using the attenuation feature. For example, some people claimed the sound with attenuation on sounded more smooth, while others claimed it was lifeless. Same goes for attenuation off. 
 

Let your ears determine what sounds best after you run thru the many different configurations.