What is meant exactly by the description 'more musical'?


Once in awhile, I hear the term 'this amp is more musical' for some amps. To describe sound, I know there is 'imaging' and 'sound stage'. What exactly is meant by 'more musical' when used to describe amp?

dman777

@mahgister You got it.

@wyoboy 

what is your take on hybrid amps that use both tubes and ss at the output stage--do these amps suffer from the same issue as ss amps?  or are they better at dealing with the higher-order harmonics b/c of the tubes? 

Most of these designs use feedback. When you use feedback in any design, you must have enough Gain Bandwidth Product to support the loop gain (which is the gain of the amp after the feedback is added). Most amps lack the GBP to do this properly, so when they run into that limit at a certain frequency, distortion will rise on a 6dB/octave (or greater) slope. This phenomena is usually perceived as harshness and brightness. Tube amps with feedback have this problem although its not as pronounced as in solid state since tube amps tend to have better distortion characteristics (to the human ear) when running open loop.

Put more simply, hybrid amps are a partial solution. Something I've not mentioned in this thread is how the feedback is received at the input of the amplifier; in most amps that point isn't linear (typically the base of a transistor) and so the feedback signal itself is distorted. That prevents it from doing its job properly, and since this practice is widespread, has given feedback a bad rap.

Feedback isn't bad if its applied properly. In a hybrid amp, the feedback is usually applied to the cathode of an input tube which is usually a lot more linear than a transistor in a solid state amp. This does help the amp be more musical, but since the GBP is very likely lacking, does not fix the problem (you can find this out by simply measuring distortion vs frequency).

Sorry if this is a bit technical!

The reason why distortion vs frequency is so important has to do with how the ear perceives distortion. I'll give you a typical example. A common frequency where many solid state amps reach their GBP limit is only 1KHz. Imagine a signal at 1KHz; it might be low distortion, but you can have a harmonic at 7KHz that is considerably higher than that 1KHz THD figure would suggest- and the 7th harmonic is not only amusical, the ear is also keenly sensitive to it because higher orders are used by the ear to sense how loud sounds are. Sticks out like a sore thumb.

So if you want the amp to be musical, its important that the distortion vs frequency is a flat line across the audio band (or nearly so- 10KHz is probably acceptable since harmonics at 20KHz won't get a lot of attention). Tube amps with little or no feedback have no problem doing this; its part of why SETs have a foothold in modern times.

But SETs are really obsolete (IMO there is no reason for them at all); the only reason they get by is due to their distortion signature and distortion vs frequency being a flat line. You don't need the amp to be SET to do that and so there are musical amplifiers that aren't SETs (which make a lot more power and are more transparent).

But most people that are involved with SETs do not understand the facts I've laid out here. This includes a lot of SET designers. I'm sure I'll get pushback on this, but engineering is why tubes exist, why airplanes fly and why lights come on when you turn their switch on; engineering coupled with an understanding of human hearing rules is at the heart of this.

@atmasphere You're right--a bit over my head on the technical side but i appreciate the effort.  What about hybrid amps that don't use feedback--claiming to use zero feedback to "maintain harmonic integrity"--eg Aesthetix--still a problem?  I'm not asking you to comment on that product line--just the design.  Having owned both tube and ss amps i am looking at hybrids as a solution to the problems you outline above--basically a more "musical" amp to drive low efficiency speakers.

 

the some people don’t like the Strad comment was all about taste…

The ear brain is king but tastes are the puppet master for most all of audio… and more..

Interesting , some people can hear negative feedback = TIM and simple temporal distortion in addition to the various forms of harmonic distortion Ralph and a FEW ear/brain centric designers ( very rightly but not completely ) focus on.

The comment about the long term ( listening) vs short term ear brain appeal is under rated…otherwise many a good listener would pay WAY more attention to level matching ( RIP Roger Modjeski…Lord, i miss you )

Thankfully music isn’t a sine wave, although i am sure there is a shoegazer sub variant approaching this… feedback looks great w sine waves…

IF you want an excellent evaluation of the temporal distortions get a variable negative feedback amplifier RM-9 , adjust for level and evaluate the stereo image using the excellent Opus 3 disc… Depth of Image

As for a Hybrid amplifier that i find passes the LONG term musical listening test, I can recommend 3:

Vanderteen M7 HPA, Aesthetix Atlas, Music Reference RM-200

there are of course more…..

and IF you can’t hear how an amplifier destroys temporal information, try getting your system in phase… and or considering a speaker that passes the impulse test… Since getting the electronics in phase is free, start there….