Garrard 301 motor and rumble

I just ignore him now…. i made errors of engagement along the way… 

@fsonicsmith I have my Dad’s 1961 MC240….. immeasurable joy

@atmasphere 

And there you have it. AC synchronous motors particularly the three phase ones are the best turntable motors because they automatically apply corrective torque. The older motors had to rely on the AC lines frequency which is held within limits but is not as stable as an electronically applied signal which can be changed to adjust speed. The old idler drives might be accurate to lines frequency for a short period. Watch one start up. There is so much initial slippage in the drive as it fights to get the platter up to speed which is why the idler wheel wears irregularly causing speed irregularity and rumble. If you use boosted subwoofers it is virtually impossible to stay ahead of it. The cost of a modern electronically controlled three phase motors is not cheap and may well cost more than an idler drive especially the older ones which when manufactured in numbers where cheap. A CD transport is more complicated and they are dirt cheap. Belt drives are certainly simpler which is perhaps the main reason they are so effective. If you have a thing against belt drive tables Direct Drive is a much better way to go from a raw performance perspective. And, no the belt on the SOTA does not slip as the Eclipse Drive has a soft start up feature. Torquey bastard too. It is hard to stop it. If a record does not seal (warped too much) I hold the rim of the record down with two fingernails at 180 degrees during startup and usually will get it to seal. Am I making the belt slip then? Good question. Next time I start it up like that I'll take the motor cover off and have a look. I have not seen any deterioration in the wow and flutter yet. I am also fortunate in that I can see the speed of the turntable down to 1/1000th of an RPM and it does not waver. 

@tomic601 

Getting cold feet? 

@fsonicsmith 

Wood bases can be a beautiful thing. Might I suggest Macassar Ebony? 

My Dad had this HUGE Rek-O-Kut  turntable with a HUGE ESL tonearm on it, very impressive. No antiskating. Some fool mounted it in a fancy custom cabinet right on the veneered plywood. Talking about feedback and footfall on top of the rumble. Fortunately, he also had an Ampex R2R. That was heaven, a lot of hiss, but heaven none the less.  My first table was a used TD 124II with an ADC Pritchard tonearm soon to be exchange for an SME. That required shoveling a lot of driveways. The TD124 as you are probably well aware had a hybrid drive. The AC synchronous motor drove the stepped pully via a short belt. I guess the thinking was to isolate the drive from motor noise? Then of course it had two platters, one on top of the other with a clutch for cueing.  I never used it.  After a few more Winters of shoveling and a little subversion I managed to procure a Revox A77 Dolby. I guess the Apples do not fall far from the tree. Not that I did not buy or play records, But I was never happy with turntables and I had a bunch of them, After the TD there was a Sony, a Micro Seiki, two LP12s, a Transcriptors , an Oracle and finally the first turntable that actually worked really well The SOTA Sapphire I bought in 1981. It worked so well I kept it for 40 years. Like most of us young lions, children put a lock on the audiophile budget. I might add that all those tables I was unhappy with were belt drives. Direct drive tables at the time were not good. They worked well but for whatever reason did not sound as good as belt drives of the day. Nobody did anything with idler drives back then except maybe a changer or two.

There is more to a car than raw performance. There are the looks, how it talks to you, how it smells and the silly little things it does like unexpectedly opening it's Frunk as if it is giving you a smile. I see no reason why a turntable can not be as such for some people. So, enjoy your turntable, put it in a nice plinth (Macassar Ebony) and be happy. It is what you like.  I would keep a stash of spare idler wheels.

Big fish get to be that way…by at the very least..not rising to every ineptly cast fly…

What is overlooked when it comes to the usage of different drive mechanisms for creating the rotation of a TT's Platter. Is that all drives are able to produce a rotation that is absolutely correct to enable recorded music to be replayed as per the requirement for a recording.

Where the differences are to be discovered is pretty much limited to three alternatives for how the Speed is controlled. There has to be an interface that connects the Drive to a surface belonging to the Platter. Along with this connection there is the Electro-Mechanical Mechanisms in use to control the Speed of the Platters Rotation.

Taking producing sonic being produced out of the equation, each drive mechanism is able to produce an accuracy in the Speed Rotation to meet the requirements of replaying recorded music. This is pretty much set in stone, or Tech savvy enthusiasts for Vinyl Replays, would be spouting there protests endlessly, as this is not seen, it can be assessed that any Drive used for a TT, produces acceptable rotation speeds for the platter.

The Tonearm (TA) > Cart' being used in conjunction with a LP are the next ancillaries required to produce the Trilogy that enables Vinyl LP Recording Replays.

It is the introduction of the TA > Cart' that creates a New Interface and one that can be assessed as a result of being able to encounter a produced sonic.

It is the outcome of assessments, especially the extreme end, where analysis of the sonic is taking place, where a sonic being produced from a System Source is exposed as being an attraction or detraction to the individual only

Hence, following analytical assessment, certain individuals end up on a quest, sometimes very costly, to discover interfaces that are much more aligned with their own unique and preferred tastes. 

In my own Case, I have used in my system over a 30 Year Period in chronological order, BD (8yrs), ID (15yrs) and DD (8yrs).

For 15yrs with a ID and for 3yrs of the DD usage I used TA's from Brands SME IV and for a period with the ID and DD I also used a Audiomods Series V Micrometer.

Today on DD only I use a different TA, it is no longer based on Geometries introduced by Rega, and has a thought for the mechanical interfaces that have shown through as extremely attractive when in use contributing to the produced sonic.

At this time and place, I have found a method to produce Vinyl Replays, that in my opinion does not surpass any other I have used, all used over the years have been totally capable of producing music that has been thoroughly enjoyable as an entertainment.

As an individual, what my quest has enabled, is that the the present situation, is where the replays that are being encountered in my System and Listening Environment, are to myself as an assessment much more aligned to my own unique preferences.

It is each to their own, I find it very difficult how anyone can suggest an individual is not contented with their Source and System.             

@mijostyn The Pabst motor used by Empire is one of the best synchronous motors I've seen for a turntable. That motor was used in one of the Rek-O-Kut turntables and its probably the only one to mess with. Rek-O-Kuts had a pretty massive platter though but can't be damped easily due to the idler drive. Most of them I've seen don't use the Pabst motor and seemed to need some time to warm up before they would play on speed. I've not sorted out why but its something to do with the motor. 

The older motors had to rely on the AC lines frequency which is held within limits but is not as stable as an electronically applied signal which can be changed to adjust speed.

As you can imagine, this really isn't true anymore- there are devices which feed a very frequency stable 60Hz output for older motors like that- people are doing that for the Empire machines. But the AC line frequency has been traditionally very stable regardless- I'm not sure on the Empire if going electronic wins anything.