Btw, @dogberry: how much time ago did you that tests with the V/IV with and with out silicon?
R.
TONEARM DAMPING : DAMPED OR NOT ? ? USELESS ? ? WELCOMED ? ?
Dear friends: This tonearm critical subject sometimes can be controversial for say the least. Some audiophiles swear for non damped tonearms as the FR designs or SAEC or even the SME 3012 that is not very well damped in stock original status.
Some other audiophiles likes good damped tonearms.
In other thread a gentleman posted:
" If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. " and even explained all what we know about the ideal resonance frequency range between tonearm and cartridge ( 8hz to 12hz. ). He refered to this when said: " properly matched to the tonearm ".
In that same thread that a Triplanar tonearm owner posted:
" This is the one thing about the Triplanar that I don't like. I never use the damping trough...... I imagine someone might have a use for it; I removed the troughs on my Triplanars; its nice to imagine that it sounds better for doing so. "
At the other side here it's a very well damped tonearm:
https://audiotraveler.wordpress.com/tag/townshend/
Now, after the LP is in the spining TT platter ( everything the same, including well matched cartridge/tonearm. ) the must critical issue is what happens once the cartridge stylus tip hits/track the LP grooves modulations.
The ideal is that those groove modulations can pass to the cartridge motor with out any additional kind of developed resonances/vibrations and that the transducer makes its job mantaining the delicated and sensible signal integrity that comes in those recorded groove modulations.
That is the ideal and could be utopic because all over the process/trip of the cartridge signal between the stylus tip ride and the output at the tonearm cable the signal suffers degradation ( resonances/vibrations/feedback ) mainly developed through all that " long trip " .
So, DAMPING IS NEED IT AT THE TONEARM/HEADSHELL SIDE OR NOT?
I'm trying to find out the " true " about and not looking if what we like it or not like it is rigth or not but what should be about and why of that " should be ".
I invite all of you analog lovers audiophiles to share your points of view in this critical analog audio subject. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT?
Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Some other audiophiles likes good damped tonearms.
In other thread a gentleman posted:
" If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. " and even explained all what we know about the ideal resonance frequency range between tonearm and cartridge ( 8hz to 12hz. ). He refered to this when said: " properly matched to the tonearm ".
In that same thread that a Triplanar tonearm owner posted:
" This is the one thing about the Triplanar that I don't like. I never use the damping trough...... I imagine someone might have a use for it; I removed the troughs on my Triplanars; its nice to imagine that it sounds better for doing so. "
At the other side here it's a very well damped tonearm:
https://audiotraveler.wordpress.com/tag/townshend/
Now, after the LP is in the spining TT platter ( everything the same, including well matched cartridge/tonearm. ) the must critical issue is what happens once the cartridge stylus tip hits/track the LP grooves modulations.
The ideal is that those groove modulations can pass to the cartridge motor with out any additional kind of developed resonances/vibrations and that the transducer makes its job mantaining the delicated and sensible signal integrity that comes in those recorded groove modulations.
That is the ideal and could be utopic because all over the process/trip of the cartridge signal between the stylus tip ride and the output at the tonearm cable the signal suffers degradation ( resonances/vibrations/feedback ) mainly developed through all that " long trip " .
So, DAMPING IS NEED IT AT THE TONEARM/HEADSHELL SIDE OR NOT?
I'm trying to find out the " true " about and not looking if what we like it or not like it is rigth or not but what should be about and why of that " should be ".
I invite all of you analog lovers audiophiles to share your points of view in this critical analog audio subject. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT?
Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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- 318 posts total
@mijostyn : I have to say that time later that when started this thread and in some ways " following " what you said I came back to listen my cartridges/tonearms with out use of the silicon tray and I did it in the last 6-8 months till I decided ( due to some kind of improvements in my room/system ) to tes again the silicon tray that it was an is revelatory for say the least and it's in this way as I decided to folow with that kind of cartridge damping.
R. |
Within the last 18 months the Reference moved off the Series V, initially when it went for a rebuild. When it came back, I put it on a Series IV (as the V now has an LP-S), where it sounds just as exciting. Recently I removed the damping silicon from the V, to see if it made a difference to the LP-S, but I don't think it does. It may be that those cartridges just don't need any damping on those arms. |
Dear @dogberry : The issue is that it’s not an easy task to detect the analog jitter/natural mistracking, you can see that here mijostyn just has no answer or solution or as you think that it’s not need it.
All cartridges in all tonearm need it and to detect the " phenomenon " we need a self very good test proccess especially with LP tracks recorded at high velocities. Now that I know what to look for I have not many trouble to detect it but first we need to make several tests til we can be " there ". Before I started this thread I was over 0ne year making almost everything of cartridge damping to know if it’s need it or not and as Townshend my conclusion was and is that it’s need it.
How each one of us do it that cartridge damping is all about each one of us the easy way to go is with the silicon tray but if any of you have other " solutions " then are welcomed if decide to share it. Remember that’s it’s not to damp the tonearm but the riding cartridge: this is the real subject.
SME had and have its reasons to have that silicon tray as did it Micro Seiki that was a cartridge manufacturer too and other tonearm manufacturers. Say it does not need it can’t help to the issue and if that does not need it is your way of thinking at least share an explanation why does not need it.
Again science and Townshend tesis says it's need it. R. |
Raul, you may be right, and it is hardly for me to argue. But if my one, poor, remaining ear cannot hear the difference, what then? I shall note that SME do not include any damping trough on most of their tonearms: it is standard only on the V (but is offered as an add-on for some of their other models). I have a good deal of respect for Alastair Robertson-Aikman's engineering decisions. Might it be that you are referring to some more esoteric effects of damping rather than obvious mistracking?—when I got into Decca cartridges it was received wisdom that they would probably mistrack in an obvious way without a damped tonearm. My experience has been otherwise, but I don't have any of the classic Decca cartridges before John Wright modified them into something more refined and capable. And if we are to consider more subtle things than obvious mistracking, what of the supposed loss of dynamics that goes along with use of the damping trough? It is the (I'd say unrivalled) dynamics of Decca cartridges that makes us love them, and to dampen them down might remove their character. |
- 318 posts total