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Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires
ricevs
1,543 posts
 

Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.

So, are numbers on a distortion meter evidence? Sorry, no. Evidence in audio is how something sounds. You have to start with the sound and then try and figure out a way to measure it so we can repeat the great sound.....or avoid the bad sound. If you start with a myth (made up in Amir’s mind) that a certain SINAD number means total transparency (without any actual listening tests to prove it) then you have zero science.....basically it is ASR....Anti Science Review....or Amir’s Seance Review (channeling dead deaf people). It is simply childish pretense that would lead someone to think a number on a graph means something in REALITY without actually checking reality. Reality in audio.....is how something is perceived by the ear......its called "sound"....percieved by doing listening tests. Real Audio science would be to listen to various things and see if you can hear a difference......if you hear a difference between say two cables......then try and find some way of quantifying it (including measurements).....THIS IS SCIENCE!!!!! The whole purpose of science to to discover what are the underlying things that make something the way it is so we can understand it and use the knowledge to better our REALITY.....and in this case our reality is how something sounds.

Yes, I am one of those who have been kicked off ASR. They did not like my point of view and threw rocks at me.....and when they found out I did mods that do not change the measurements and that I sold "tweaks" that improve the sound but that cannot be measured.....they naturally wanted to string me up for being a "immoral rip off dude"......so within hours I was banished to heaven......for ASR is HELL....he he.....They certainly gave me hell.........so childish.

Here is a guy who hears the difference between cables and amps and lots of stuff and he is trying his best to find some reason why these 32 cables all sound different......this is real science.....unlike the fairy tale on ASR.

Happy Mothers day. I am your Mother and I love you all with all my heart and soul. You are my Mother and you love me with all your heart and soul. We are all the Mother......loving herself....and her children......we are the children, we are the Mother.....please be kind.....our mother wants us to be kind.

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,183 posts
 

It is proven by acoustics that we hear qualia corresponding to physical invariant properties of any vibrating sound source...

Sound is not mere vibrations in the air but real qualia in the vibrating sound source perceived with and through the vibrations in the air...

Ears/brains is not only and more than just a Fourier computer...

Now imagine someone defining sound qualities with a few electrical measures of separated pieces of gear in no room and for no ears...😊

Music is not abstract ratios but concrete "timbre" perception by the brain/body...

Then making claims about hearing without knowing what is hearing and equating it always and mostly as potential delusions in the context of marketing a site, tools and products is at best if not fraud pure ideology but certainly not sciences...

In audio psychoacoustics rules design not the reverse... Tools are tools not truths... Interpretation  linking chains set is the core acting mind guiding gesture ...

ricevs
1,543 posts
 

Your first sentence seems to come from: "I am an advanced college Physics teacher and I will tell all you kindergartners what is real. You are all too young and ignorant to understand but someday after you get your Doctorate you will then know that I speak truth."

Very funny....qualia, invariant properties, Fourier, abstract ratios, pychoacoustics. I get what you are saying, but most just roll their eyes (including me, most of the time) when you post. Just too dang many words.........I just say, "you need to listen to know anything".......I like to use the fewest words possible. If you have to say the simple truth in an encylopedia......well, I would rather put my mind and heart on the LOVE OF LOVES.

I think you should tell jokes or describe something really amazing and beautiful.....this post is a joke......and you are beautiful.....and you do not have to prove it to anyone.

Let us be still and listen and feel the divine Mother loving us.....right now and forever.......then send that love out to all our childrem (everyone on the entire planet).

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,183 posts
 

I am sorry but i said acoustics elementary facts as they are...Which FUNDAMENTAL fact is precisely contradicted by many ASR objectivist if you are able to understand what my sentence imply .

I put above others post with many articles of science who explained it all and justify my short last post...

Mocking my writing will not help...Others already did it by the way...

What i learned i learned it in my 2 years experiments room ...

And if you think i am pretentious being short and on the point with this sentence which only express fundamental acoustics truth :

«It is proven by acoustics that we hear qualia corresponding to physical invariant properties of any vibrating sound source...»

What i must think after your mocking of my few sentences about your sentence

:

Let us be still and listen and feel the divine Mother loving us.....right now and forever.......then send that love out to all our childrem (everyone on the entire planet).

When you throw a pot you think the flower you throw after is a gift coming from your divinity ? 😊

I dont like to be bullied and i dont bully but i am ready to be corrected and i corrected when i can... ( my knowledge is limited)

Grow and if something is WRONG in my first sentence CORRECT me without mocking my posts lenght or lack of humor .,.. I dont joke all the time get used to it...I already posted jokes above...It is enough ...

There is an acoustic revolution right now and the articles i posted are proof about it... You dont read them and will not because their lack of jokes and

Just too dang many words

?

And i will correct you :

My post is not a joke and i am not beautiful...

And i dont need to prove anything... I like helping in this debate which is very important... Acoustics is a matter that interest me because my main subject is philosophy in general...

The articles i posted here are for ONE or TWO person who will be interested. I always posted supposing my readers are intelligent and of good faith...i like discussion more than jokes...

 

 

 
 

 

 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,183 posts
 

 

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