Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

TWo DACS that measure well are more likely to sound similar.

If they measure differently, better chance they sound different. If they sound different, then which one is best? Answer: whichever one you think. But in that case, there is no data to support that either one is objectively the "best" or even "better". One thing is better to audiophile A and something else is for Audiophile b).

What the hey?

 

Subjectively, anything is possible. Everyone is different, but well designed high performance electronics will tend to be more similar than not, which can be pretty boring when you think about all the gyrations audiophiles go through to achieve the best sound yet few can even agree on what "best sound" even means.  Not a problem when things are measured properly.  Like it or lump it.

@deep_333 Sure, DSP can change the way things sound, but I'm not aware of any manufacturers who don't make such features switchable and therefore hide away their secret sauce. Pretty much all DAC makers strive towards accurate reproduction first and DSP features are add-ons (even if their algorithms are proprietary for this add-ons).

Seems like an odd and unlikely claim but I'd be interested to learn about specific instances!

No, you can get a dozen DACs with very similar measurements and they will still ALL sound different from each other. Check out reviews from all over the world that prove this. The two DACs a/bed both have very good specs. They do not measure poorly. Please listen to wires and solder and resistors and jacks, etc and get back to us about it all being measurements. You do listening.....you will KNOW. You theorize...you get words....not knowledge

As many of you know.....I have modded CD players, DVD player, SACD players and DACs for years.  Aso designed and sold my own DACs.  I can take any machine and make is sound way, way better and it still measures the same.  Go figure.  I don't have unhappy customers.....they like the results after modding to before modding.....they say it sounds more detailed and more real.....yet is still measures the same.  Have you every modded something?  Do you know what parts and execution can bring?  Only those that do and listen will know.  All other noise is just made up fantasy ego trippin.  YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO KNOW HOW SOMETHING SOUNDS.  Times infinity......this is the TRUTH.

@ricevs Well, it’s an interesting series of claims that I’ve read before but it’s not clear why that might be the case. How can we hear differences that aren’t somehow present in the audio signal and therefore measurable? It’s very incongruous and does not correspond with ordinary science and engineering principles, or with even everyday logic per se.

Do note that manufacturers’ specs can be false and also that a specific unit may be broken. Testing by a third party like ASR can help to ascertain the reasons for the differences, not always perfectly, but they would add additional support to these apparently tendentious ideas about these products.

Measurements are worse than useless other than for the audio engineers in the design phase.