Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

On a whim I visited the ASR forum. Lots of mid-fi, products on loan to Amir. Cult indeed.

I didn't know if you don't buy overpriced gear you are part of a "cult."  Regardless, I test plenty of expensive gear in the range of electronics you own.  Go to the Review Index tab, select a category (e.g. electronics) and sort by price.  Here is an example:

 

Note how I have recommended a number of products in that price range.

Many of the members can afford very expensive gear.  One for example sent me $30,000 worth of CHORD products.  When I asked him how long I can have it, he said whatever I need since he had bought a Topping DAC for a fraction of the price and it sounded every bit as good to him!

I document the lack of correlation between price and performance in my Audio Engineering Society paper.  Here is a video summary of it:

 

There are other studies such as those by Harman that show the same in headphones and speakers.

He also hasn't eliminated his tube lineup.

He has a good following on the tube side so keeps selling his existing products.  But from design point of view, he decided to move to the other side instead of staying with tubes.  Likely because he has seen the major progress class D amplifiers have made in performance.  Something that we have highlighted on ASR more than any other site.

Yes, I've read some of his posts on here about class D , and apparently his Class D amp has gotten good feedback from folks who have heard it.  I was just pointing out that he hadn't abandoned his tube line . We're in agreement on both points

I just talked with Ralph last week. He has not moved away from tubes and considers his class D amps to be better than the 60 but not my MA-1s. I have a number of ideas about why he would make this move, but I dont believe performance is on the top of his list. I listened to these amps at Axpona 2 years back and he paired them with these awful single driver plexiglass-like enclosure speakers so I have no idea how they actually sound. To date I have heard many class D amps, including the AGD (looks like a tube device) and wasnt impressed. If he wants to send me a pair I will give them a listen, but I remain skeptical.

To you reactive guys. Amir makes a much larger percentage of his income indoctrinating you than I make from selling overpriced gear. BTW, I dont try to convince customers of anything, I just invite them to listen. 

How many of the products I carry have you guys heard? In fact please share with us details of your system, how you came to buy these products and what effort you have made to listen to other products that may sound better. Also are you willing to listen to an underperforming tube device? 

I will start with my current system in my dedicated room without a big screen between my speakers. Room treatments are mainly homemade and I am very close to doing a wall damp on this room. My dimensions suck and have solved a few of these problems with adding mass. Your room is the single most important thing to get right. Listening to 2 channel over 40 years. 

Current system: Merrill Williams REAL table, Tri-planar tone arm, Hiyabusa and top Dynavector MC cartridge, Zesto Audio Teserra Ref. phono stage, Zesto Audio Leto Ultra line stage, Atma-sphere MA-1 amps, recently rebuilt Quad 63 and 2/3 way Atohm speakers. Cabling mainly Kubala with some Inakustik. No power conditioning with improved AC power outlets. Oh and an inexpensive Simm Audio CD player that I bought used.  This lineup changes often.  

Amir, still waiting for the list of industry people. I'll make it easy for you, give me a list of industry people that design any piece of audio gear at any price with any level of preconceived bias. Oh and stop mentioning Harman. Prefacing them means nothing.

Give you a bit more information so that you can see how my taste and knowledge has developed. My first system purchased in the early 1980s, during college. VFet Sony integrated amp, Bozak LS250 speakers, ADC t.t with Grace F-9E mm cartridge with assorted cables. Learned from this experience that I didnt have nearly enough power to drive these speakers and things were a bit more complicated than my dealers let on. From this point I started to read, find those who were willing to mentor me and spent the rest of my time listening to as many systems as possible.

So I actually have been where some of you guys probably are at this point, fortunately I didnt have someone like Amir telling me to do anything but judge by anything other than actual experience. Unfortunately for many of you, navigating the audio landscape is much more complicated than it once was. Sure more ridiculous claims but also the sound of equipment has steadily improved since back in the day.

The rub for me is most of you skeptics arrive at you opinions not through listening. Not much more be said. Let me put some of you at ease. Just because some of us spend more on this hobby is no cause for you to take this personally. We arent better people, we arent necessarily better more asute listeners and we arent wealthier. We choose to spend as we spend because we believe we are getting better sound and this is very important to us. Simple. Who are you or Amir to say otherwise?