Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Show me any definitive test or study that says that our senses are wrong, especially in an audio setting.

I already have.  I will post again in an attempt to see if you will read it this time.

Sean. E Olive, "Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained Versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study," J. AES, Vol. 51, issue 9, pp. 806-825, September 2003

"J. AES" means Journal of Audio Engineering Society which means all papers are peer reviewed prior to publication.

Audio salespeople like you were tested in their ability to consistently rank speakers in controlled, blind tests.  They massively failed to do so relative to trained listeners:

 

From the abstract:

"Listening tests on four different loudspeakers were conducted over the course of 18 months using 36 different groups of listeners. The groups included 256 untrained listeners whose occupations fell into one of four categories: audio retailer, marketing and sales, professional audio reviewer, and college student. The loudspeaker preferences and performance of these listeners were compared to those of a panel of 12 trained listeners. Significant differences in performance, expressed in terms of the magnitude of the loudspeaker F statistic FL, were
found among the different categories of listeners. The trained listeners were the most discriminating and reliable listeners, with mean FL values 3–27 times higher than the other four listener categories."

As noted above, dealers were 3 times less accurate than trained listeners.  I have participated with a group of dealers at Harman and watched them first hand fall apart in double blind tests where Sean Olive and I could go way past were they could not.  And these dealers are above average by having gone through extensive training at Harman (but not for specific purpose of evaluating speakers).  You likely would fall at or below Audio Reviewers who were 5 times worse than trained listeners.

If you can't tell the difference reliably between speakers were there is objectively large differences, what hope is there for you tell any difference in electronics?  None.

If you disagree, please show controlled listening tests that demonstrate your ability to properly evaluate audio fidelity.  Outside of that, you are grading your own exam and we know how much such scores mean.

You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes? The money you make off these sourced components makes money for Madrona yes? I can tell by the way you answer these questions there is more to this than you are letting on. I dont believe you but it really doesnt matter.

I would think that my dealer status should be obvious. If you think this pearls before swine stuff helps my business think again. I take no radical stance other than that measurements dont tell us nearly what you would suggest. I take issue with you and some of your faithful because I believe your stance on this hobby is a tactic. A ploy to get a following and then lead them down a path that serves your purpose. You offer a simplistic solution to a confusing hobby and as such you are guaranteed a following. To what end and purpose only you know, but it isnt to help your faithful or this hobby. Remember a successful parasite doesnt kill its host. Or at least not quickly.

Where did say that I didnt like Ralph's designs or the man? I like Ralph personally but this has no bearing on my ownership and representation of his product. I obviously wouldnt buy his amps if I didnt think they had something unique to offer. 

I used "chips" for want of the correct word. I believe these chips/GanFets were made by Toshiba. Point is I was talking with Ralph about this when you were getting fired from your other jobs or winning grammys or whatever was going on in your past life according to other members.  

Your show reports suck. You blame the performance of the stereo on the music. Ask for some other music then and make some sort of effort. But why if he designs using nonperfomant (did I get this correct) tube equipment? Your mind is made up and admit that it cant possibly be viable because it is a tube product. Admit this and save us both some time.

Please a list of the industry people that have helped ASR become an industry influencer. Simple request and if you dont answer some of the faithful might take notice and start buying purple fuses.

Feel free to contact me directly if you need help with your reference system. 

Carry on Amir. 

 

 

Oh my God it is like talking with a child. You keep going back to this Harman test. Did these people know they were being tested? If so, then all data can be dismissed. Pretty simple to tell a group of listeners what to listen for and then rank them higher than those with little to no clue. Without more detail it means nothing and even less because it is most likely a marketing ploy which was implemented by an audio distributor. JAES, peer reviewed by people who believe as you do so this means very little.  You mention it because it gives you an added level of credibility to those not familiar with such things. Did Harman put on some dull music and then call it a day or did they play different music of different genres. Remember that Ralph plays real music not Diana Krall and related drivel. Real music for people that participate in this hobby for the love of music. He would have been happy to play something of your choosing which is often what real reviewers require in order to do a fair representation. Tell you what, spend $ 200K on your system and $ 10K on measurement devices and you might learn something new.

Keep up the good work Amir. We may be done so if I dont respond dont take it personally and you may tell your devotees you kicked my butt and I took my toys and went home.

@amir_asr  "If that is the definition of "genius," then I am the sharpest tool in the shed. 😁 Members do indeed donation significant amount of money to ASR."
What did P.T,Barnum say? "There is a sucker born every minute."

"As an aside, "audition__audio" made it clear from his first post he was a dealer, you need to read more carefully.

You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes? The money you make off these

@audition__audio

- He is a Harman dealer (Madrona digital).

- All his Revel/JBL speakers get "golfing panthers" all day long. They tower over the competition apparently. I bet all the minions run to him, thereafter and buy some sterile lousy sounding Revels in droves.

- His company is also posed as an integrator, which implies that he sells AV gear. I would wager that he sells Sound United products (Denon/Marantz), because he he’s been measuring the low sinad and granting happy panthers on Denon products. His minions go wild and feral when they hear the word "Denon".

The AV side of his minions don’t just buy 2 speakers, they would be buying 10 for such rigs...So, i would wager that he makes a killing in sales, with the "measurement based" advertising he does on his forum. IMO, it is quite clever how he poses though (as a conveyor of truth through measurements n all instead).

He also begs for donations every time he spits out a chart from his garage...A thoroughly indoctrinated minion would also donate a lot, i’d think (no matter if it’s living paycheck to paycheck or if it’s got deeper pockets). Such is the plight of an indoctrinated minion, i’d think.

In summary, a few lousy charts from a AP kit has made him a lot a dough, i’d bet.