Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@kevn I previously addressed the issue of these hearing-excess-of-Fourier arguments as well as heterodyning and nonlinear effects within the ear. The problem isn't that there are interesting experimental results, it's that they don't demonstrate that there is anything that can be done to audio equipment to implement better solutions to whatever gaps may be present. For instance, if I am a DAC designer there are several different pathways to accurately reproduce a signal but there is no theory that says one approach will improve over another in matching the nonlinear merging properties of higher and lower frequencies in the cochlea.

Now, you can suggest that somehow listening on the part of the designer is allowing them to choose between design pathways but this is just speculation. It may be true, as I noted to @mahgister, but we don't know and neither does the designer.

So there is a certain faith built into all this speculation, just like god-of-the-gaps arguments in other online communities ("listening-in-the-gaps" arguments has a nice ring to it!). It's interesting but needs proof and a proper measurement methodology that shows a path forward for determining exactly how these phenomena impact equipment design and use.

Since you are a bit of a student of ideas in philosophy of science, one key one in contemporary thinking on the topic is lifted from Wittgenstein that we must remain silent on things we have no knowledge of and we have no knowledge of this. Until we develop it sufficiently we do have an AP and spectral sweeps.

@kevn Thank you so much for your analysis, putting into stark relief what I attempted to state in more basic language.  Also thank you @markwd for your cogent comments.  I've been stating the same thing in two Audiogon forums with 2000 posts (and Amir condescending arguments which are invalid for the most part).  

I have only one complaint in that the vinyl LP and crude stylii were the initial semblance of high fidelity sound. It was the magnetic tape that predated that attainment of sound quality. Today, it is still true that the mastered analog tape is closer to the recorded sound than the disc, unless the disc was recorded as direct to disc. I only have about 200 R2R tapes from the 50’s and 60’s and most are quite good (7.5 ips and 1/4 track). Better tapes are now available but relatively expensive. With 31,100 LPs, I often desire to obtain higher fidelity than encoded on my records. I keep most of them for the performances (live and studio) that are unobtainable from alternate media. I also really appreciate CDs as a convenient and often superior format but I admit I have superior playback equipment. Until recently, I preferred analog playback, now it is dependent on the mastering more than on the format.

Thanks again Kevn!

@kevn I'll just add one footnote to my previous post: we might actually be able to address the specific issues of heterodyning and nonlinear cochlea interactions in audio by using DSP to simply mute tones that interact in those areas of the hearing range. This would be like addressing a room mode but within the ear itself. Of course, we would be robbing the signal of its fidelity in so doing.

Still, in order to do this we could use experiments that first demonstrate it will improve human hearing. There is a great deal of literature on methods for overcoming hearing loss; there may be something in there concerning speech that points towards something useful for audio equipment design.

Let's get that gap filled in!

I did look at ASR as several friends touted the Topping DAC, specifically, D70s as the finest in their lineup, a balance of resolution and liquidity/musicality. Well, they are relatively inexpensive and now three of us own one. Coupled with fine quality transports (mine is a Jay’s Audio CDt3 Mk3), it extracts CD quality sound rivalling analog LPs. I have replaced it with a Lampizator Poseidon at 50X (!) the cost (not getting 50X the improvement though, more incremental). ASR touted the Topping unit as the best at the time (2021?) but soon thereafter replaced it with an even lower noise version the D90. Unfortunately, new versions don’t translate into better sond, just better measurements in this instance. My prior experience with older Topping DACs was negative, just too raw sounding, an unsettling listening experience, typical in my pre-2005 feelings toward CD playback. Even my transport costs 10X the Topping. It is a truly great unit. I read last week of a high end recommendation for a $100 DAC, possibly an SMU unit that is also a huge bargain for a DAC. It’s amazing what new design technology can do to benefit music lovers to sonic bliss. I have a relatively good ear and cannot say one way or the other why one unit’s design and materials are superior to the other as I have inadequate electrical knowledge but I am shocked at how affordable DACs (and for others who stream) good sound is available.

I don’t understand all the hostility to Amir and ASR. He provides valuable insights and information into our hobby. As many have noted, the problems started when Tekton’s owner threatened to sue.