Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Until this year, I was using Legacy Signature IIIs (superior to the Focus) which I purchased in 2004 for $1600, running them with highly modified Dynaco ST70 (tremendous bass when made a voltage regulated amp rather than ultralinear) or with a simple tube pre-amp. My friends still use older tube gear and their audio systems are fabulous sounding. I have the ability to splurge and enjoy high end sound now in my custom built room while keeping that system above for the living room (quite impressive to guests-out of the box sound that is rich, dynamic, enveloping and with great dispersion). Yet for analog, I’ve gone backwards in price and am using a Dynavector 20X2L. It is perfectly set up in a highly modified SME IV-sounds great on so many LPs rather than just the best recorded and pressed. $1100 cartridge in a $200K system plus I don’t fear using it or breaking it compared to a much more expensive cartridge. Now that I have solid state amps (Westminster Labs REI) as well, the only continuing cost is replacing the cartridge every 3 to 4 years.

The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized. Look at What’s Best Audio Forum. Most posters are congenial and obliging of alternative views, anxious to hear what’s new, posing answers as to what improvements can be made to existing equipment. Generally, it’s expensive equipment. No one ever put me down when years ago I posted the question if most CD transports were not as important as the DACs. Of course I was 100% incorrect.

@fleschler I guess I'm still baffled by this kind of sentiment. It doesn't impinge one iota on your preferences for others to state that X or Y has better objective performance than some choice you made. You b u!

If someone says something like, well, there is no evidence that cables make a difference, to me it's worth learning why they make that claim and what reasons and testing that they are citing to back up their claim. You can of course carry on thinking that cables do matter and you can hear a difference, but at least you have learned an alternative perspective.

I guess I side with @ricevs on a happier way of engaging with online communities, though I'm calmer in general and not quite so ecstatic! 😎

@markwd Is it me or are you damning with faint praise a bit too much?
It's getting a bit off putting.

All the best,
Nonoise

@markwd You hit the nail on the head.  I was evicted by Amir from ASR a couple years ago (I knew nothing about the site at the time but noticed it was very active).  I mentioned that I preferred a digital cable and of course, maybe a dozen acolytes tore me a new one for not adopting their "cables are all the same" and "fuses are all the same if they measure the same" mantra.  I noticed another post concerning an isolation platform for large amps and they did the same to him.  ASR has a place but so many vitriolic members that it's a big negative "vibe" (ironic).  Well, I'm glad to have Audiogon and WBF forums where I can trade information and learn. 

It was J.Gordon Holt in a about 40 year old Stereophile who imagined activated carbon filtering built into walls as bass traps.  I took his advice and did the same in my 2019 custom built listening room (see my profile for details about my room).  When Von Schweikert came to set up speakers as a friend, it took only 1.25 or 1.5 hours instead of his 5 hour blocked out time frame.  The room is so well designed/built that it is a breeze to set up (without resorting to DSP).  I finally had the great sound and dispersion that I never had after 20 years of stats and then 22 years of dynamic speakers (except those Signature IIIs in my living room).