Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Every DAC that measures the same will sound different.....this is what those that listen know.  Every amp that measures the same will sound different.....this is what those that listen know.  Every wire that measures the same will sound different....this is what those that listen know.  

Those that do not listen?  How can they have an opinion on what they did not experience?  This is crazy.  To suppose a distortion measurement on some machines actually signifies in total how something sounds is literally insane.  NO LISTENING = NO KNOWLEDGE.......No serious listening tests to prove your measurement theories = BS......plain and simple.

YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT SOMETHING SOUNDS LIKE WITHOUT LISTENING.  You cannot know what something looks like without looking.  You cannot know what something tastes like without tasting......etc. to infinity.  Our own senses are the most scientific instruments ever existed.  We are meant to experience directly.....not live through machines.  Machines are soul less.  That is why a Amir approved cheap Topping Dac sounds soul....less.....because it was designed for MEASUREMENTS ONLY.  The designers who listen....design for good measurements and GREAT SOUND......Topping does not have great sound.  This is what all the reviews describe......Most say they are great for the money.....some say even other Dacs for the same money are better.  No one who has heard more expensive Dacs thinks the Topping DACs are as good......no one....except for Amir and his Minions.

Yeah academia. What a trip!

At least with some academics you get some viable arguments and up until recently discourse was encouraged. 

My advice is to trust your instincts. Take what Amir has posted on this thread and judge for yourself. Take a close look at the responses of other members and then think of your experience with people in your past that exhibit certain tendencies and judge not only who to believe but who is attempting to engage in meaningful conversation. A lecture or discourse. Further take a look at possible motivations. I respect the attempt to indoctrinate for financial gain more than an attempt to indoctrinate for the satisfaction of one person's ego. 

Read these forums, visit both sites, read what the members have to say and how they treat those with whom they disagree and take note. Further avoid people that are constantly taking about themselves and attempting to convince you of their worthiness or superiority. A true asset to this community will let others build them up and will let the hobby decide who is a true asset. Avoid people who speak in terms of absolutes and  avoid people who discourage you from buying based on anything but actual experience. 

Enjoy the trip. Music and audio can be a wonderful journey despite the best efforts of those who will try to convince you that you cant trust your own senses. Even more ridiculous is these people may attempt to convince you they have your best interest at they discourage experimentation.

Many of us will be dead soon so it is encouraging to know that there exist a few enthusiasts below the age of 50.

 

Wow need to proof before posting. Who knew! Should be "have your best interest at heart as they discourage experimentation". 

What more proof of Amir's arrogance are his own words.

I co-founded What's Best Forum (and came up with that name!).  So I speak from actual knowledge that we had battles between members like no one has ever seen.  Raging wars would better explain it. 

Bold letters to emphasize patting yourself on the back as oh so clever and smart..  Disagreement with what you were peddling you characterize as "raging wars". You had no role in the battles and were completely innocent of adding fuel to the fire?

It got so bad that I had to sell my half and go and start ASR as people became incredibly rude and intolerant of any measurement or talk of science.  In some sense, if people were cordial and respectful of everyone's opinion, ASR would not exist!

How ironic to cite rude and intolerant as reason for your departure.  Seems like that model of behavior followed you to ASR.  But, of course, rude and intolerant is perfectly acceptable at ASR when it is in support of you and measurements.  The final put down and demonstration of your superiority is another chart comparing visitors to ASR and Whats Best.  Real class on your part.

Amir has turned this thread into a rent free branch of ASR.  Abusing Audiogon with excessive cut and paste of ASR material as if sheer overwhelming volume will crush disagreement or valid criticism. 

 

By now I think we all know the real Amir. Unfortunate that he found a bunch of people that seem to be as impressed with him as he is with himself. I respect anyone that builds something and because of this I get doubly upset when the ego of one person prevents proper development. Do as I plan to do. Ignore him and dont visit ASR.