By now I think we all know the real Amir. Unfortunate that he found a bunch of people that seem to be as impressed with him as he is with himself. I respect anyone that builds something and because of this I get doubly upset when the ego of one person prevents proper development. Do as I plan to do. Ignore him and dont visit ASR.
Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews
I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
1. Speaker pricing.
One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.
2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
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@pynkfloydd excellent summary of how that thread went. i for one am happy you are here :-) Enjoy the music |
I hear you but where do you draw the line? I listen to all speakers and headphones I review. I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review. As you go further upstream, I listen less and less. How about you? I assume you think the power cable makes a difference so you have to listen there. How about the AC outlet on the wall? Do you have to listen and pick one based on that? If so, how about the outlet cover? Does that make an audible difference and hence you have to listen? |
@audition__audio - Assuming your response was directed at me, but appreciate the wisdom and understand where you're coming from. My take is the strong responses to ASR (and particularly to Amir) are due to arrogance, hubris and half-truths. People have been including measurements in reviews long before ASR existed and will continue to do so after. Gene with Audioholics comes to mind and to the best of my knowledge, Stereophile has always included measurements also (and neither has received such negative community blowback). If all parties involved were being totally honest, they'd admit the digital side has rapidly evolved in the past few years due to a maturation of technology, which has made affordable options more accessible. I think that's why people are getting rubbed the wrong way by ASR folks since they're claiming to have started a revolution when the revolution has already happened, is done and we're onto the next one... --It wasn't until fairly recent where storage and networking have reached a point where it made business sense to stream lossless content, which was then followed by more mainstream hardware to do so. Audiophiles also seem more open to directly marketed Chinese products following years of Parasound, Cambridge Audio, multiple headphone brands, etc. building goodwill-- Just to draw a parallel, it'd be like one of the video review YouTubers claming they've influenced TV manufacturers to make 4k go mainstream when its major influences were actually Blu-Ray, Netflix and gaming. Personally, it's been a fun journey so far and having a resource like Audiogon has been an invaluable resource.
@tomic601 - Thank you! |
Amir, If you want the best sound possible (largest goosebumps, tears, etc.) and if you have the time, energy, money and will.....you will do whatever it takes to make your stereo amazing sounding. Obviously, this is something you have to WANT. My friend with his totally new, totally tweaked Apogee Duetta speakers (yes, you can still buy brand new Apogee speakers) is constantly trying new things.....yes, power cords, AC sockets and plugs, Furutech cable lifters, footers, floating air tables for his amps and turntable, all my tweaky deeky things, he is off the grid with a 5000 watt inverter, uses a separate ground rod for his stereo, has ground filter, super ground wires, modded Puritan line filter after the inverter, etc. etc. He LISTENS To everything he does. He does not like all tweaks. He wants it to sound as real as possible. For instance, he has tried some of the Synergistic tweaks and finds they change the sound and make it more spacious and larger.....but he thinks it is phoney.....it is not real. His sound stage is enormous without them. He does love what my Music Purifiers and Ground Enhancers do. He listens to music way, way more than he tweaks......but he also researches when he has time all over the net for things that might improve his playback.....He recently bought a $14K phono stage from Japan (got it half off). He loves it....has had many phono stages over the years. He listens to every kind of music and attends concerts. A few years ago I asked him if he was "done"......He said.....’If you can find me more ways to reduce the noise (distortion and noise are the same thing).....then I want it". So, he keeps reducing the noise and gets bigger and bigger goosebumps. He says his distortion is so low now that he can play soprano opera singers at super high levels without a problem. He now has way over $100K in his system.......I have maybe $6K in mine.......but I am seriously tweaky and modifiy or make my own stuff....so it sounds way, way good (makes me cry).......but nowhere near his level. What is so cool is when you reduce the noise (audible not measured) then you not only can hear that there are 5 back up singers instead of 4.....but you hear/sense their actual presence. It sounds like people and instruments are right there playing for you.....Wow that is a Gibson guitar with Fender strings and a Maple top and his fingers are dirty and he is playing his soul song to ME. You can feel the interaction between the musicians.....you can feel the intent of the composer and players......you feel the soul of life. This is what happens when you lower the noise in your stereo. The veils go away and you are transported out of time and space into the heart of life. You should have seriously listened to the Tambaqui when you had it there......would have blown your Topping to kindom come. But, you think they all sound the same as long as there is low measured SINAD. Too bad, you are missing so much. |
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