Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

I knew that Amir was a cofounder of WBF.  If he hadn't left, I'm certain that after years of derogatory statements of opinion as fact, he would be booted off.  He is just incendiary to most acute music lovers and listeners.  My friends and I tried PS Audio gear (for me the latest CD transport).  We disliked all of their products.  For less money, I purchased a Jay's Audio CDt3 Mk3-near SOTA quality product at PS Audio price.

My friend with a high end system ($400-$500K) had his 250 watt BHK Signature amp on a YG Sonya 2.3s and I told him (he was an electrical engineer and never performed music and rarely hears live music) it was poor match.  He tried at least a dozen amps and currently owns three with only the Moscode 402 AU sounding good.  

So, a Mola Mola which I haven't heard, should be better than a PS Audio (whose employees are very nice people, just like Synergistic Research whose products are mostly irrelevant in my system).  

Imagine testing a Lampizator Horizon or my Poseidon against a Topping.  The best test is hearing the Lampy in a high resolution system.  While my Topping D70s sounds great and even my wife (not a musician or audiophile) said it sounds like LPs, my Poseidon sounds even better at 50X the price.  It's like her Genesis G80 turbo 3.5 a is superior driving experience to her 2002 Lexus LS 430.  Both have a comfortable ride but she stopped driving the Lexus.  

There are many paths to great music reproduction of sound and most do not run through Amir and ASR, only a few do.  How about testing a Benchmark amp or flavor of the month Topping versus my Westminster Labs REIs?  If the latter loses in the test, the test is no way indicative of the huge chasm in quality of sound reproduction in favor of the REIs.  I was a tube amp user for 50+ years.  The REI amps are better, maybe a reason that the aficionados of them switched from low powered single ended amps and huge behemoth tube and solid state amps.  They may or may not be classic Class A amps as uniquely designed minimizing parts and wiring but they are small, cool  and drive 1 ohm loads with 800 watts sounding better than the several Class A tube amps I've used and heard.  Exquisitely.  What the goal of a Class D amp should sound like if it could.   

Amir,

Everything makes a difference. I listen to everything I can afford. I (currently) have little money. I cannot A/B expensive AC sockets.....my friends do. What I do is eliminate them as much as I can for the best sound possible. I hardwire a cable into my inverter and at the other end use a good connector into the compoent. The IEC plugs at the component end are the chinese Viborg ones. I cannot afford to try the Furutechs or I would. The AC inlets on my equipment are the Furutech $27 ones. I prefer those to the NCF Rodium version. I hardwire my speaker wire into the speaker and clamp the other end to wires to the wires coming out of the amp.....all connectors suck. The best sounding speaker post I have heard is the WBT copper Nextgens. On and on......I do everything I can.....I listen to every single thing I can afford to listen to. My friend with the Apogees can afford more....so does more. He has one of those burn in machines and burns in all his AC connectors, all cords, capacitors, etc. for hundreds of hours. Everything makes a difference.

There is something called "common knowledge" If you are in a beach town but don’t know where the beach is, you ask someone on the street and they point a direction and say.....3 blocks that way. You are probably going to get to the beach by following their instructions 90% of the time. They may be direction challenged or just plain ignorant. But if you ask 3 people and they all said the same thing then you are likely to get to the beach 99% of the time. Same with audio. My friend with the Apogees researches and researchs for hours and hours before deciding to buy something. He has so much info from several people who have heard these things and are reliable enough to trust that he has NEVER ever been let down by his purchases. He does not trust one persons review or mention. He would never trust what someone says about sound quality if they have not listened to it (someone like you.....you have no knowledge for you do not listen). The common knowledge he gathers is reliable and turns out to be true when he gets the piece of gear and puts it into his system. So, when he speaks about it it has even more clout....for he has added his own experience. But he already KNEW how it would sound because HE TRUSTS others experience and TRUSTS his own experience. You do not trust your self or anyone. This is your problem. You think hearing is fallable and you HAVE to have to do blind tests to know anything. This is pure BS. Blind tests....as I stated before are for the deaf.

My aural memory lasts for decades. If I use a particular test piece over and over again I will remember how that piece sounded for years and years. When I play that exact recording on my latest stereo I know if my audio reproduction is a good as back then or not. Example one: Back in the late 80s I used the Stereophile test disc #1 music cuts as one of my main test recordings. Then I put it away and did not listen to it for awhile......but in the late 90s pulled it out and played it on my stereo. Where is the air on the triangle? How come the guy that is singing in hebrew sounds veiled and ugly? I say to myself. This is not how it sounded years ago! I had this 3 way speaker at the time......so I decided to remove the midrange a prop it up on top of the speaker and unwound the inductor on the woofer so it would go to up to 300hz instead of 150....so it would fill in the loss that the midrange would have because it has not on a baffle or in a box. After setting it up......it sounded the same tonally.....so my tweaking was good. However, the sound was now WAY frickin better (first time hearing an open baffle midrange besides electrostats or maggies). The triangle was floating in air.....the decay lasted way longer.....the guys voice singing was now beautiful......Was is as good as years before when I played it on my super modified Quad electrostats? Not quite......but dang good. It was my aural memory of the recording that got me to try and improve my system so it would match my memory. This happened again to me just a month ago when I set up my new open baffle two way speaker. This time is was an over 40 year old memory of an album I had not heard for that long (La Folia de la Espana) that got me to tweak my speaker more. Now it sounds almost as good as I remember the record sounding back in the early 80s (playing a CD now)

If you research ALL the reviews on Topping D90s and all the reviews on the Tambaqui.....you will then be able to interpolate how they sound versus each other even if no one had them both together (with incredible accuracy). For instance....lets say one reviewer said his $4K Dac was way better than the Topping.....then you see another review where someone compares that $4K DAC with the Tambaqui. If you trust those people (which, of course, you would not) then you have some real information....that when combined with all the comments from everyone you read gives you a common knowledge about those relative pieces. You will KNOW something about them without actual listening. When you get something in and have your own experience and then talk about it versus whatever and post it somewhere then you add to the common knowledge about these things. If you do not trust yourself or anyone then you just go to Amirs site and buy the best measuring thing that you want. Very simple. You trust no one (just measurements) and end up with good but never great sound. If you want great sound....you need to investigate first and gather common knowledge and then listen for yourself to confirm.

If I or anyone said they owned both the D90 and the Tambaqui and they said the Tambaqui is way better.....you would not believe them. You would ask them if they did a double blind test......and how many people were there to confirm. Even if they said they did a double blind test and there were 20 people who confirmed......you would still not believe them. You would have to have them submit a study to the Amir super critical dept. and have it reiviewed by the head Amirian and then most likely put at the bottom of the stack. This is how stubborn you are. You are not going to do research on listening tests on the D90 or Tambaqui. You would consider it a waste of time. You already KNOW how they sound versus each other (WITHOUT even listening)......To you, they sound the same because they both measure like you want. Very silly childish game you play.

So, no I have not listened to either the Topping or the Tambaqui.....but I have read enough reviews about them that gives me a sense that I KNOW what they sound like relative to each other. This is not rocket science. Like I said, my friend has never bought something he regrets after doing super research. He trusts certain people and their comments. Me too. You neither trust yourself or anyone. Again.....NEVER trust any ONE person......go for the common knowledge. Common knowledge is held in common....amongst many. My freind used to say "it all comes out in the wash" Meaning.....after many cyles of listening and evaluating you know the truth.....the true colors of you cloths and the true sound of something. But first, you have to wash your mind of doubt. You have to let your self experience and know......and know that your mind is not the knower.....your soul is.....You have to get your critical mind out of the way to really listen and really KNOW. I wish you much mindlessness. It is the same as mindfullness.....but devoid of monkey mind ego chatter. Can you dig?

The question is....Do you truly love yourself?....not in an ego way....in a pure Mothers love way. Do you trust yourself? Not in a jilted lovers way.....but in the way a baby fully trusts his mother. Do you purely love and trust others? Or do you need to control and fight and defend your position? Only you can answer for yourself. You know yourself.....exactly how loving and trusting you are at any moment......if you are willing to look. Most do not want to look, for if they looked closely their fear is that they would see how unworthy they are. THIS is the BIG LIE. We are incredible, magnificent angelic beings.....capable of feeling and sharing and radiating all the love and joy of the universe. WE are all living miracles.....Now, LET US CELEBRATE!

@amir_asr I see similarities with your repetitive appearances here and those of Tekton's owner Eric Alexander.  Not too long ago Eric came on this forum to defend his own and his products reputations.  He was warned many times that he was effectively shooting himself in the foot with his abrasive style and argumentative nature.  He eventually learned something and ceased his antics.  Eric I'm sure would admit that he was hurting himself and had become more self aware as a result of the advice given here. 

Amir, here is some advice to you.  Be quiet.  Look inside yourself.  Become self aware.  You are hurting yourself and your brand by making your inane repetitive statements here.  Like Eric, you are driving people away.  But you can't see that can you?  You simply can't overcome your elephantine ego.  You can do better, but you are unable to overcome your transparent self center.  It's okay to be wrong.  I'm embarassed for you.  Talk to someone you trust and who is able to speak the truth to you.  They will agree with what I've said.  You can do it. Sorry for my harshness. Peace and happiness. 

@kevn 

Please point out in the link where it says audio measurements are not able to keep up with the human ear:

@ricevs 

Thank you again for detailed answer.  On this statement:

If you research ALL the reviews on Topping D90s and all the reviews on the Tambaqui.....you will then be able to interpolate how they sound versus each other even if no one had them both together (with incredible accuracy). 

But you didn't research all of those reviews, correct? 

Let's say you had.  Wouldn't that then violate your statement that started this conversation?

YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT SOMETHING SOUNDS LIKE WITHOUT LISTENING. 

You hadn't done this listening test yet you were confident to tell me:

You should have seriously listened to the Tambaqui when you had it there......would have blown your Topping to kindom come. 

Clearly you are going by some other factor other than your own listening test experience.  Isn't it logical to assume then that you don't need to always listen and you can use other evidence to make assessments of fidelity?