Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

You say that you "know"......this is incredibly arrogant.  You say we are not capable of doing listening tests and knowing anything.  So, all the high end reviewers were completely wrong all these years.....Martin Colloms, HP, Gordon Holt, Peter Moncrief, Jean Hiraga, Robert Harley, John Atkinson, etc. to infinity......and all the manufacturers.....to infinity....have been wrong....all this time.....not to mention the 200K audiophiles who listened and "thought" they heard a difference.  For you, those people never heard a difference in equipment or wires or caps or resistors or damping or power cords or fuses, etc ets. etc (they all made it up).......unless that equipment had a bad SINAD.......This is what you claim.  Only YOU know what is right....and what you say, is right...and that is, that they all sound the same....same with wires......you are the final say in all of this.  None of us mean anything....we are all just fools.  Only you have the golden ears....which you don't use....You don't need to....you have your fake science....you have distortion measurements that are 100% the indicator of what we hear.  No other kinds of distortion exist (that is what you believe).....only the kind that you measure on your machine.    You sound like a child on the playground arguing that the moon is made out of green cheese......this is not the mind of some wise person.....who really WANTS to know the Truth.  

Real science is based on "testable" observations using our senses....along with measurement machines in order to understand the world.  You have no proof......your beliefs are not tested.....and they not use our senses.....your fake science just uses your ego based rational mind to defend a position you decided long ago.  You really don't care about the truth or finding out what is actually going on....you just want to be right.  VERY SAD.......you must be very lonely and feel unloved.  We love you......no matter what you think. 

It is really joyful to discover another hidden gem of tweaking that makes your stereo come alive.  I wish you all an ever expanding sound stage and life.......as Buzz says......to infinity and beyond.

@ricevs There is no point trying to discuss A/B, A/B/X, any kind of listening test with Amir.  Any test he conducted or was directly involved in is by his definition, is scientific proof.  Of course, in every one of those cases no difference was noted, or if some slight difference was noted it will be explained away.

In every listening test Amir references, that he was not directly involved in, resulting in no difference heard, again that is scientific proof.

In every listening test Amir had no involvement in, that noted differences heard, it is dismissed as invalid.   

Without any direct participation in listening tests, Amir can determine validity simply from the outcome.  What a talent, indeed.

@ricevs There is no point trying to discuss A/B, A/B/X, any kind of listening test with Amir.  Any test he conducted or was directly involved in is by his definition, is scientific proof.  Of course, in every one of those cases no difference was noted, or if some slight difference was noted it will be explained away.

Double Blind tests *did* show amplifiers to sound different

 

 

"So there you have it. "Proof" that amplifiers do sound different in double blind tests."

Throughout this thread, I have post a number of positive outcomes of double blind tests which hard core objectivists saying "can't happen."  I suggest you adjust your talking points to who you are addressing.

Please show us the hundreds of double blind tests done over a long time with hundreds of subjects that prove this....please...please....please. 

That is like you claiming aliens landing in your backyard every night and when I say that can't be true, you want testimonials from "hundreds" of people to prove they can't see them!

Instead of asking for hundreds of tests, you should do one test to prove you can hear the difference in a proper way where only your ears are involved.  Here is an example of ASR member doing a blind test of DACs :

"I am sharing my experience with my first ABX testing. Last Friday me, together with a friend performed a double blind test on this systems:

1) Chord Dave + Upscaller from Chord2Go+2U - headphone output
2) Topping D90 + A90 from a laptop
3) Chord Mojo headphone output from Iphone.
4) Apple lightning 3.5mm adapter, output from Iphone.

[...]

Result.. We could not tell the difference reliably between the systems. Which is.. proving either that we are both deaf or audio fools. We are repeating the test this Friday, I will post update if I can still type though my tears. Silly enough I can 100% reliably say which one is better when I see what system is connected."

Who was the member here that said Topping sounds terrible?  

For a fraction of time it takes to keep posting here, you could transform your knowledge of audio fidelity by conducting one controlled blind test.  Many have and enjoyed the benefits.  

I get that living in the Matrix can be nice. But ultimately it is not real...

 

It is really joyful to discover another hidden gem of tweaking that makes your stereo come alive. 

It would be if it is real.  If it is imagined difference, it will disappear like a fart in the wind, leaving you with emptier pocket and thicker fog of audio subjectivity.

I suggest you learn about Equalization.  In most cases it costs nothing.  Results will be transformative.  And you can tweak it for months if you wanted to.