Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

If you are not satisfied with your purchase, feel free to request RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) within 45 days of the delivery of the order."

@amir_asr - Please read personal experiences of people trying to actually return anything to Apos and a number of other authorized Topping / SMSL retailers.

Here’s a whole thread on Head-Fi, which is actually sponsored by Apos:

Head-Fi Apos Return Experiences

 

Another thing to point out is that when I was in my 20s, I had no problem buying as-is broken electronics on eBay and fixing them up as I didn’t have much money and all the time in the world. These days, I average ~60-80hr work weeks so while I now have the money to buy nice things, I don’t have the luxury of time.

All these blind listening tests, nightmare sellers and unreliable products cost me more than if I were to spend $10k+ on a working DAC that I can forget about for the next 5 years or so.

The bottom line is that you cannot prove that you "know" anything. I have stated several times that you have no proof that your beliefs are true. I have asked you several times to show us the proof....you have not even mentioned what I have said or asked.......you simply ignore it. Ignore it again why don’t you. You ignore it....because you are wrong and cannot prove you are right. No one will ever prove it because our ears tell us what is real....not a distortion meter.

I again ask you to show proof that a certain SINAD measurement means that a component is totally transparent in sound. Please show us the hundreds of double blind tests done over a long time with hundreds of subjects that prove this....please...please....please. YOU CANNOT....there will never be such tests because why would we need to prove that we hear what we hear......only someone like you would even try to prove such nonsense. And if you sponsored it......it would have no clout as you are biased. Only someone who is completely unbiased could even run the tests. Even the Boston Audio Society or whatever is biased towards numbers......so it would have to be done by someone not even in audio for it to be considered valid. So, go on and show us the tests results that prove all DACs, preamps, and amps that measure a certain SINAD or better are transparent. If you cannot prove your "theory"......then it is just a theory....made up by you.....which is what it is....plain and simple....you are playing "make believe"....like a child.

Where’s the BEEF?!!!!!!!!  Where is your PROOF?!!!!!

 

You say that you "know"......this is incredibly arrogant.  You say we are not capable of doing listening tests and knowing anything.  So, all the high end reviewers were completely wrong all these years.....Martin Colloms, HP, Gordon Holt, Peter Moncrief, Jean Hiraga, Robert Harley, John Atkinson, etc. to infinity......and all the manufacturers.....to infinity....have been wrong....all this time.....not to mention the 200K audiophiles who listened and "thought" they heard a difference.  For you, those people never heard a difference in equipment or wires or caps or resistors or damping or power cords or fuses, etc ets. etc (they all made it up).......unless that equipment had a bad SINAD.......This is what you claim.  Only YOU know what is right....and what you say, is right...and that is, that they all sound the same....same with wires......you are the final say in all of this.  None of us mean anything....we are all just fools.  Only you have the golden ears....which you don't use....You don't need to....you have your fake science....you have distortion measurements that are 100% the indicator of what we hear.  No other kinds of distortion exist (that is what you believe).....only the kind that you measure on your machine.    You sound like a child on the playground arguing that the moon is made out of green cheese......this is not the mind of some wise person.....who really WANTS to know the Truth.  

Real science is based on "testable" observations using our senses....along with measurement machines in order to understand the world.  You have no proof......your beliefs are not tested.....and they not use our senses.....your fake science just uses your ego based rational mind to defend a position you decided long ago.  You really don't care about the truth or finding out what is actually going on....you just want to be right.  VERY SAD.......you must be very lonely and feel unloved.  We love you......no matter what you think. 

It is really joyful to discover another hidden gem of tweaking that makes your stereo come alive.  I wish you all an ever expanding sound stage and life.......as Buzz says......to infinity and beyond.

@ricevs There is no point trying to discuss A/B, A/B/X, any kind of listening test with Amir.  Any test he conducted or was directly involved in is by his definition, is scientific proof.  Of course, in every one of those cases no difference was noted, or if some slight difference was noted it will be explained away.

In every listening test Amir references, that he was not directly involved in, resulting in no difference heard, again that is scientific proof.

In every listening test Amir had no involvement in, that noted differences heard, it is dismissed as invalid.   

Without any direct participation in listening tests, Amir can determine validity simply from the outcome.  What a talent, indeed.

@ricevs There is no point trying to discuss A/B, A/B/X, any kind of listening test with Amir.  Any test he conducted or was directly involved in is by his definition, is scientific proof.  Of course, in every one of those cases no difference was noted, or if some slight difference was noted it will be explained away.

Double Blind tests *did* show amplifiers to sound different

 

 

"So there you have it. "Proof" that amplifiers do sound different in double blind tests."

Throughout this thread, I have post a number of positive outcomes of double blind tests which hard core objectivists saying "can't happen."  I suggest you adjust your talking points to who you are addressing.