Are REL the most Musical Subs?
Forgive me if I have created a redundant thread. I don’t usually post in the Speakers area.
I have a Paradigm sub in my basement HT that has apparently given up the ghost after about 20 years. I’m not a huge bass listener. We used to use the area for movies but lately a different room of the home has taken that over. I listen to classical music and the system gets used primarily for SACD and Blu Ray. No desire for multiple subs. The front speakers are full range, setup is 5.1
I added a REL sub to my 2 channel system a few years ago, an REL, and have been delighted with the results. It doesn’t boom at me. What it does do is add the low level percussion effects that composers such as Mahler, Shostakovich , and modernist composers add to reinforce bass lines. I never realized, for example, how many gentle tympani and gong effects are in Shostakovich Babi Yar symphony.
The REL integrates all of this naturally without calling attention to itself. The Paradigm in the basement never did this but it was an older design and more budget friendly.
So I am inclined to replace the Paradigm with another REL in the basement but was wondering what the current thinking is with subs. I haven’t paid much attention lately and the stuff that I have pulled discusses multiple subs, Atmos, etc, and doesn’t seem to address my needs.
Placement will be different as well. The current sub is placed between the front speakers, and the gear rack is on the other side of the room. 20 years ago I had the energy to bury the cables next to a baseboard heat along the all, after schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack
@squared80 I agree with the sentiment that subs are either good or they aren’t, but for my own taste I find sealed subs with smaller drivers to be more “musical” because they trade peak output for speed and accuracy. it’s why I went with dual SVS SB3000 years ago to replace my B&W sub and the SVS are worlds better. They blended well with my B&W 802D also play extremely well with my 800D2. I can definitely recommend SVS. |
+1 @mijostyn - the finest sub I've ever heard was from the “Bass Exciter” in a classic JBL L212 (3) piece package - it provided clean, even, low-end reproduction from 70Hz to ultra sonic frequencies. Didn't play at all like a newer “thumpy” subwoofer. The output blended seamlessly with the towers and provided the perfect amount of low-end presence. Its obviously an older passive sub that requires power from your amp to fire. The best sub is the one you can't hear, only feel. Just my opinion |
I have a pair of REL S/510s that are partnered with Magnepan 1.7i towers in a medium sized room - 23' X 14' X 8' and they are very solidly blended. The absolute "must have" for any sub-to-speaker pairing in any rig is utilizing an active crossover to act as the frequency traffic cop. Highly recommend Sublime Acoustic for this piece of gear, it's simply priceless. I have a pre-programmed XO Module with a 120Hz/24Db slope and the RELs literally disappear. I had just one sub for about 6 months and recently added the second and the level of game-changedness is very clear and defining. |
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@seb_audio Sealed subwoofers rule, but the concept of speed is a fallacy when it comes to subwoofers. Smaller drivers have to move farther to displace the same volume as a larger sub driver. As the excursion distance increases the tension on the suspension increases. The suspension becomes non-linear until it can not move any farther. As the nonlinearity increases distortion increases. Suspensions in general are only linear in the first 25% of X Max best case. Larger drivers produce less distortion. You can compensate for small drivers by using them in multiples. @bdp24 I hate to tell you this but all those designs have to compensate for serious flaws which can be avoided by design. They are ....unique. As an example, a large subwoofer driver that is operating within 25% of it's X max does not need a servo mechanism. It's distortion is already very low. Servos are a crutch for small drivers operating outside of their parameters. Also this does nothing to compensate for room issues. A sealed subwoofer does not need any dipole correction circuit. 95% of the problems encountered with subwoofers come from the enclosure and inappropriate integration schemes. What subwoofers need are large and multiple drivers, unflappable sealed enclosures, a lot of power and digital equalization to get the proper balance in a residential situation. The best teacher is experience. I started using subwoofers in 1978 when I purchased two RH Labs units, a Dahlquist LP 1 crossover and two Kenwood LO 7M amplifiers. Selling that system was a big mistake. After that I had a set of early Velodyne subs which where pretty weak and eventually self destructed. By then I had a workshop and started making them myself. I also listened to every subwoofer I could find on display. Ported subs are for theater use only. Good subs can be used for both theater and HiFi. I tried open baffle subs given I always use Dipole ESLs or Ribbons. The response in room was impossibly lumpy. This misstep was followed by three sealed designs, the last being the most accurate I have ever heard up to about 100 dB. Going louder without distortion would require more or bigger drivers and I have not got room for either. The sad problem is that making enclosures like this are not economically feasible for manufacturers. The price would severely limit the market. I published the design so that anyone interested can make their own or perhaps have them made. Any good cabinet/furnisher maker could do it. The drivers cost $600 per enclosure and the enclosures somewhere between $10 and $20K each! Can the same performance be accomplished with much less expensive construction? I'll leave that for someone else to figure out. @bgross You bet. It is that feeling that counts. |
