Recommendations for MM Phono ~ Tube or Solid State

@pindac Stated " I would be better off financially by sticking with the Essential 3160 at an approx’ £1.2K option, even though as a design it will be obsolete and superseded by the other designs available today ".

@lewm stated "The original is barely 10-15 years old" - "the bipolar transistor that Raul et al use in the MC gain stage is out of production"

I have made no secrets on the Audiogon Forum that most of my HiFi System is produced as a Commission Build.

Most of the Designs that have been selected are Bespoke. Certain Electronic Components which have been selected to be used in certain Devices, such as the Tranx’s are ’one off’s produced as Hand Wound Designs.

Amp’s have been as the end design, Voiced to my preferences prior to them being brought home. Amp’s when home over a period of usage have been Tube Rolled with the intention to discover a Voicing that is a personal preference.

Every audio item able to produce sound that I have owned and used as a ’go to’ tool over the past 25+ years will have undergone a process of having it Voiced to suit my personal preferences.

In some cases I have been present as the Voicing was being undertaken. In other cases a very good description was supplied of the expectation of the Work to be undertaken, that was realised by myself as being an option that had an attraction.

In relation to Phonostages, I make it no secret on the ’Gon’, I have made it a secondary hobby to experience many in use, especially in short time periods between each demo’ received.

Such experiences have lead me to forming the view, there are a selection of Designs for Phon’s that share a similar Circuit / Topology are not appealing, the sonic trait from the design has for myself been easily detectable and not wanted.

Such experiences have also lead me to forming the view, there are a selection of designs for Phon’s that to my personal preference have proved to be very attractive. These Designs for a Phon’ are wanted to be continuously experienced and maintained in use. Some are commercial products and some are Self Built designs, that are produced by very competent individuals with EE Skills or Qualified EE’s.

Such experiences leaves one with info that is not so commonly assessed. Where the cost for Phon’s is usually made known or a friendly inquiry will reveal the cost for a particular model. Being privy to such info on costs allows for comparison to be used to assess value for money.

When a BOM (Bill of Materials) for the Phon’s produced as Self Built Designs is discovered to be typically between £500 - £2Kish and these designs depending on cost have been found to sit comfortably in comparisons with Commercial Brand Phon’s costing approx’ £2K - £10K+. It does not take long to work out the Components used in a Commercial Design exclusive of the Phon’s casing, are going to fall somewhere near the £300 - £1K mark.

As I know and share with the EE and Designer of a Commercial Branded Phon’ used for a Demo’, who was commissioned by a Company to produce one of the £10K+ Phon’s, I know the Ball Park on the components BOM being under £1K was the suggestion.

Where I am different to many enthusiast’s of Audio Equipment is that much of what I buy / going to buy, is governed by a BOM + EE Cost and not a retail price.

In relation to Commercial Branded Products there is a need for a substantial depreciation from retail to be able to get it bought for what would be described as close to the BOM for the device.

The Individuals I know who bought into Modwright and VAC are both very adept EE’s, who made the choice for the purchase as their confidence, and knowledge to repair was ’in-house’ and the purchase was a worthwhile Punt. From what I know of the purchase prices, I would strongly suggest these were very close to BOM in their bought value.

There is Speculation in my finding a Essential 3160 surface in the UK, but recently a Modwright has once more surfaced, offered for sale from a different person than the owner that I know. The asking price has started high. In the past five years maybe the Modwright Models have become more desirable as a Brand on the UK ?

What I feel more confident about is that when a Essential 3160 is discovered to be purchased for between £1.2K and $2.5K. At this cost, it will be quite close to the BOM for the product when first produced, this is a method of purchasing more to my liking, I'm sure it has a broader appeal as well.

Any thoughts or opinions shared on any Phon’ as a performer will be taken with a pinch of salt, I know what I like and what I don’t like when it comes to a produced end sound. For myself hearing is everything.

If a trusted EE who has a wealth of experience building Phon’s suggested as a part of the Voicing experience to tune the MM/MC Stage, suggested it was best that the bipolar transistor or any other component is removed, it would go. Such a component is not really worthwhile getting too excited over, the trials be undertaken would be setting the precedent.

Similar happened with my most recent commission built Phon’, the EE was struggling with my want to Voice it differently to their selection for the end sound. I was confident a few component changes would help create a change that would have the potential to move more toward my preferences for the end sound. In the end I got my exchanges and I got my end sound wanted. The EE said the design I had put in place will be a Upgrade option on their choice made for the Base Model.

The Commission Built Phon’ for a period of time was just jaw dropping good, and then the ’what if’ occurs, unavoidable it is. The Later Tube Rolling experiences that were undertaken, discovered Valves that proved to be really capable of bringing the Phon’ out of its shell, it was no longer a Candle under a Bushell.

Phon's are such good devices to develop being overly interested in, there is so much learning about produced sound that can be attained, through learning about the influences the devices can have.

1.2K GBP is about $1.5K these days.

@pindac stated " What caught me out is that certain US Brands in Phonostages and Amp's that are imports to the UK are discovered to be heavily discounted when ending up as sale items in the UK used market, using the US used pricing for the 3160, I suspected the same Phon' discovered in the UK as a used sale would not stretch a budget much more than £1200".

Depreciation is Depreciation, not much in a market place avoids its impact. Much of the depreciation witnessed on a product is seemingly governed by how desirable it is to be owned. I would suggest if a Product plummets in Value over time when it is offered as used sale item, as a product it has not got too much interest attached to it in the Market Place. This seems to be not so different to a New Product becoming Heavily Discounted if the Turnover of sales does not take off as the sales were projected for it.      

Myself, I don't judge a device for its capability to make an Impression based solely on Price of the Device. For myself, a decision made, is based on the function of the finished build and how the experiencing of the end sound has the capability for creating an impression as being attractive and wanted to be maintained.

It is this interest in experiencing the end sound that is able to be produced, that has been the stimulus to encourage myself to travel multiple thousands of miles as round trips to share in listening experiences of a broad range of audio devices. 

After having quite a selection of experiences of being sat in front of Demo's of Commission Designed and Built Devices or Self Built Designs vs Commercially Produced Designs in systems up to £200Kish in Value. I have been able to develop my Experiential Learning to the point where I stand confident in what I class as insights into how a broad range of Audio Equipment is able to function. I have certainly became a not so easy candidate to be swayed by opinion of others.

I am happy to report on the 'Gon' on occasions, a Build for a Audio Device that required a BOM of approx' £2K as a finished and functioning design, that has been more than capable as a design, to sit side by side in comparison with a similar functioning Audio Device that costs close to £50K. I can also happily state, this is not a 'one off experience'. I have been introduced to BOM's for a device that have been to myself attractive to consider, that when heard as the functioning end design, has proved to be more than capable as a performer, when compared to much more expensive commercial designs.

The cost of a device means very little to Myself. The design for the electronics and the end sound able to be produced as a result of the design selected is what really matters to myself.

It is very evident that there are a smallish proportion of  individuals, that are not so Taxing when creating their Business Model that is allowing others to buy into their designs for Audio Devices.

It is also very very evident there is a Business Model from a much larger proportion of another type of individual. That are ready and waiting in the Wings to add a Substantial Tax and even a Stealth Tax to enable an individual to buy into the broader available ranges of this groups Designs.

Some Companies are the Pinnacle of this Marketing Philosophy, where the Business Model is seemingly for, Low Volume Sales, which is used to Justify Substantial High Profit Margins on Products that are a so called unobtanium design that can't be offered from other competing suppliers.

It is almost like these Companies are actually suggesting they are so unique, they are owning the electricity being sent through the devices they supply to be used in a Audio System and no other can get to their special source of electricity. To myself, when the notion is being planted, that  something quite ubiquitous 'is unobtanium elsewhere',  'smoke and mirrors' comes to mind 

The following is a few very recent words from the Owner of darTZeel

"But above all, the race to offer the most expensive product, claiming it’s better, while giving ever larger discounts to end users".

"This trend, though not new, is now rotting the extreme High-End market and is destroying the industry".

" I, Hervé Delétraz, founder and creator of the darTZeel brand, have decided that this business model no longer aligns with my vision of Extreme High End".

  

My point was merely to correct you as regards the current exchange rate between pound and dollar.  First, you estimated that a used Essential 3160 can be found for $2500, and then you estimated you could find one in the UK for only 1200 GBP, which is much less than $2500. US$2500 is more like 1950 GBP. I now see that you simply mis-estimated the exchange rate.  There is also a question whether the 3160 can run on 240V.  Possibly it can do so; I think there is a switch on the rear of the PS chassis or inside the PS chassis, for that, but maybe not.

No matter what most of us say, most of us (including you and I) at least occasionally fall into the trap of equating cost with level of performance, which is nearly always misleading if not plain wrong.

All this fuss over a phono which is pretty much unobtainable 🙄