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Thiel Owners

Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
128x128jafant
devinplombier
199 posts
 

So CS5i are as hard to drive as big Apogees? How low do they dip?

 

tomthiel's avatar
tomthiel
1,683 posts
 
devinplombier-

The CS5 and 5i are identical in their requirements. The only difference is the 5i has woofers that Jim improved via incorporating his motor shunts and focused gaps, which do not change power requirements.

The Apogee line, as I recall, had nicely resistive (non-reactive) impedance profiles above 6 ohms. No problems. But their efficiency / sensitivity was extremely low at around 80dB/W/M. So they needed lots of watts to drive them.

Thiel speakers share the nicely resistive, non-reactive impedance profile, but have very low impedance across the board. The CS5 used a unique method of low-frequency extension where the 2 sub-woofers were paralleled to halve the impedance in the very deep bass. The magnitude drops smoothly from about 6 ohms at 10kHz to 4 ohms at 1kHz to 2ohms at 20Hz (and about 1.7ohms at 10Hz. That punishingly low deep bass impedance occurs where there is little musical content. Predicted performance was better than real world performance because many / most amps become unstable/erratic when delivering large current flows demanded by low impedance, even if those flows are not large. Amp designs vary greatly in this area and likewise does the nature of the sonic malaise.

Krell and Pass address the issues very well, as do others that the marketplace has identified over the years. You all have your finger on that pulse far better than I do.

I have personal experience with the early 100 watt Classe DR9 designed by Dave Reich with robust current capability. When bridged it supplies 400 watts at 8 ohms, 800 at 4 ohms and 1100 watts at 2 ohms. I had mine hot-rodded by Bill Thalmann at Music Technology for significantly improved definition and noise performance over stock. Perhaps I’ll take them to Duramax’s place to compare their performance to his later, more sophisticated units.

I wish that Jim had paid more attention to impedance magnitude. The stew could have been stirred to raise the values by a couple of ohms without significant sacrifices. But as it is, extreme care in choosing the amps driving Thiel speakers pays high dividends.

devinplombier
199 posts
 

Amp designs vary greatly in this area and likewise does the nature of the sonic malaise.Amp designs vary greatly in this area and likewise does the nature of the sonic malaise.

Sonic malaise, what a great phrase :)

Some Apogees (Scintillas?) were basically one-ohm loads with dips down to .5 ohm if I recall.

It sounds like CS-5 are difficult to drive in the low frequencies. Are they bi-ampable?

What amps did the Thiel factory use?

duramax747
206 posts
 
devinplombier

What size listening room do you have? Ceilings? 

I'll share a story with you.

in 2001-2002 I went to Nashville to Nichals to audition the CS 7.2. They had them mated with McIntosh Killowatt amps. The salesman was conservative with the volume. I gave him a CD I brought and asked for the remote.

Once track was playing I hit the volume so it was playing at a decent volume around 92-95db. About 30 seconds in the red light started flashing on the McIntosh amps as they were clipping. 

I politely thanked the saleman for his time and left. From this dealer I went straight to Thiel in Lexington. I listened to the same Cs 7.2 but this time with Krell FPB 700 CX amp.It was a completely different sounding speaker. 

Lesson,  the amps are crucial with the big Thiels. 

My reason to push the speakers and get currentt through them is to know the amp is up to the task and if I have enough dynamic headroom to handle transient peaks. 

 

tomthiel's avatar
tomthiel
1,683 posts
 
devinplombier

I don't know much about the Apogee line across the board. There are other high-end brands and models - Wilson Watts come to mind - that are have treacherously abrupt impedance swings with sub-1 ohm bottoms . . . and advertising that claims them easily driven. Thiel speakers present extremely resistive, non-reactive loads. But since their impedance is (too) low across the board, many amps just can't deliver the juice to drive them well.

Duramax's advice is spot on. Listen to demanding material at high volume and assess the enjoyment / naturalness of your response. I find it less than productive to try to analyze and describe the nature of the failure(s) because there are so many interacting factors and such academic understanding isn't the goal. Finding worthy ancillary equipment is your goal.

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