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A question about tube rolling

Hi Ya’all,

At the ripe old age of 70, I have discovered tube rolling.

Up until now, I have simply been about getting good tubes, say Telefunken or GE or Siemens, stick ‘em in there, and phougheadaboudit

I bought a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 because I just wasn’t getting what I thought I should be getting out of my Koetsu Onyx and Leopard from my Beard P505.

Out of the box (pun unintended), the Tube Box made an immediate improvement.

But, still not quite there. I looked at the tubes and they were unbranded. So I went shopping on eBay and found a pair of Telefunken red tips for $280.

It turns out that the seller lived a half hour away, and so he drove them over to me.

it also turns out that he had 10,000+ tubes - or so he says - in his basement. So he comes with the set that I paid for, and three other sets, and he leaves them with me.

As some of you know, I’m a cheap rat bastard who refuses to spend more than $0.50 on lamp wire for my speaker cable (ok I lied, I do have Monster cable). So even though he explains that he’s got exotic Valvos and Teslas and who knows what else, costing up to $1,900 a pair, I stick to a $500 ceiling ‘cause … I’m a cheap rat bastard … and there’s also that law of diminishing returns sorta thing.

A week later, he brings me four more sets.

One of those sets cost $800. And they sound, well better (although there was a situation where a $50 tube that he brought for me to put in one of the line stages of the Beard sounded better than the $250 one.).

I have listening sessions once a week, so I got my guests involved one evening. I used David Crosby’s “Laughing” from “If Only I Could Remember My Name” and we listened to it over and over, with each of the four sets of tubes, and I explained to them what to listen for in the bass guitar line, the pedal steel at the top, Crosby’s voice, the chorus (and particularly if Joni Mitchell’s and Steven Stills voice were distinctly recognizable as THEIR voices, with nuanced inflection, not just voices separated out but not of any distinct characterization), the acoustic depth and colorations around each voice and instrument, if everything was planted in a specific location on the soundstage, and last but not least, the size - width, breadth and height - of the stage. Then I asked them to pick the set that they liked best and to explain why, according to each of the parameters.

They had so much fun doing that, that going forward I will be keeping tubes of different signatures just to do these exercises with new guests, as they volunteered after the listening sessions that they felt that they learned to hear in a way that they never considered before.

Which was exactly the point of the exercise.

But I digress.

The tube guy said he had some more tubes to try out.

This time I say “Ok. Hit me with your best shot. Throw the very best pair of tubes you have at me. Just sock-it-to-me! (There I just dated myself). And just don’t tell me what they cost!”

So he comes with five sets. Some are really interesting, they have … getters? And one is that best shot. And one is a set that he says are a little weird but he thinks that they will work.

So, up until now, I have been able to hear differences in each set. And some are better, some worse, some do some things better, some do other things better, some are just different.

Of the five, I just go straight for that best shot.

Holy. Efffing. Crap.

Let me say that again, for effect.

Holy. Effing. Crap.

I had thought that my system was up there. And, well, it is: one can say that it is detailed, precise, deep, exciting, dramatic.

This is now… I guess the words I would use are true, and honest…and effortless. Whatever it is, it’s a whole other level.

I did not think that just one pair of 12AX7s or ECC83s could make such a humongous difference.

They are from 1957, and cost twice as much as the Tube Box that they are going in

So, the question is …. There was to be a question, remember? It says so right up there at the top, in the subject line. The question is: I guess I know the answer. Let me put it this way: has anyone had a similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, and should I be paying these kinds of prices for them?

128x128unreceivedogma
mattw73
79 posts
 

Yeah..like others have mentioned my first thought was to try a better phono preamp. But then if the Pro-ject makes you happy & seems to "synergize" with your gear I guess that's a good thing. 

I'm kinda jealous that you live so close to a tube hoarder but not jealous of those prices. Legit tubes are becoming harder to acquire though. I've always struggled with paying for tubes that cost anywhere close to the price of the actual component used. If you start DIY-ing that situation comes more into play. 

If some of these tubes are truly unused you will experience some changes in sound & perception from them. I have definitely experienced tubes that sounded better right out of the box...strong emphasis on bass & vocals for them to eventually even out. Where I actually preferred them when they weren't so linear sounding. But the same could be said that they sound kinda Meh at first & eventually transform into something more liquid. My point being that you really need to put some time on them before realizing their true nature. 

My approach would be to get a pair & wait a few weeks before trying something else. If you sample a pair that you really like & they are over $200 a piece I'd remember the exact tube type & at least explore elsewhere for a better price.

Expensive doesn't always mean better. Just like with your more modest prices preamp, you may experience that a $50 pair of tubes does just as much magic for you. 

I wish I had a nearby neighbor that was cool enough to let me sample tubes. You are extremely lucky. I've spent good money on tubes that definitely were not worth the price I paid. If you decide to pay big dollar prices make sure these tubes are tested appropriately. Find some everyday tubes & then tubes for special occasions. Get some "Socket Savers". Eventually getting socket savers for all your favorite tubes..leaving them attached to your most expensive favorite tubes 24/7. Just my 2 cents. It blows my mind how expensive tubes are..but I guess back in the day I thought they would be around forever. Then I got into surround sound & solid state & didn't think about tubes for 15 or 20 years. 

trivema's avatar
trivema
116 posts
 

@unreceivedogma so what brand/style was the last pair of 12AX7 you rolled in? I have vintage NOS and NOS testing Telefunken smooth and ribbed plate, Mullards, RCA black plates, GE 5751 black plate triple mica, Sylvania 5751 bp, Brimar, Amperex BB, and Raytheon bp from the late 50’s. All sound a little different with distinct sound characteristics. My fav is the Raytheon bp, combines warmth of the Mullard, clear transparency of the Tele, and treble sparkle of the BB. 

unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma OP
1,010 posts
 

@mattw73

@mulveling

I’m committed to the Pro-ject Tube Box for budget reasons. I’m not going to spend $15,000 on a phono stage when my entire system is about $45,000, spent over a 45 year period, or in other words, about $1,000 a year. If someone wants to recommend a phono stage that’s no more than $2,000, I’m all ears.

And, I have these weird little boxes in the chain, just before the amps, “BBE Sonic Maximizers” https://reverb.com/item/74294033-bbe-282ix-desktop-sonic-maximizer that I learned about from a guitarist friend. They are $90 each and probably everyone here is saying wtf but they WORK, as long as you don’t use them as tone controls. They adjust the phasing, and in doing so they make the sound more detailed and present. So big $$$s is not necessarily better. Black cat white cat whatever catches the mouse.

You may ask: but you spent all that money on the Koetsus? (I have a rosewood signature as well)

I paid nowhere near full price for the Leopard, and the (old original) onyx was a gift from a quite famous rock musician ( he allegedly had four of them) who will remain unnamed for fear of being accused of name dropping. The only hint I will provide is that he is an ardent environmentalist and he heard through the grapevine that I played a not insignificant role in keeping fracking out of NY State and that my Koetsu Black, at 25+ years, was reaching the end of its life, that I was budget conscious and decided to help me out.

As for the results I’m getting: this guy goes around the New York metro area and up into New England, into dozen’s and dozen’s of people’s homes selling hi end gear, and tubes in particular.

He shows up with a tube tester and a bag of 20 or 30 or so pairs of tubes, and we stick ‘em in the phono stage, and I listen to specific tracks that I have memorized over and over with each set. While he listens for maybe 30 seconds and then based on that, rummaged through his bag looking for the next set. After doing that for an hour or so, he leaves 3 or 4 sets behind for a week so that I can burn each for 24 hrs then listen.

I was at his home, his system is much more modern and his amps alone cost far more than my entire system. Nevertheless, on the last visit, I put in a fourth set, and instead of listening for 30 seconds then running to his bag, he just stood there and listened to the entire track. He says that “I’ve worked on so many high end systems, I’ve never stepped back and listened to an entire track before. This system is not just better than almost anything I’ve heard. It’s different in a way that is totally …” and I forgot the word he used but it was along the lines of “caressing in a completely enveloping” sort of way.

And yes, tubes are known to change, for worse but also for better, not just over weeks or months, but over years.

And yes, I’m lucky to have found this guy who happens to live in my neighborhood so to speak. It is a blessing from the audio gods, to be able to try stuff out before you buy, as some tubes have a terrific rep but when you put them in they are just “meh” and I’m talking about British Mullards for example.

@trivema I’ll post a list of the tubes later. The ones with the “nirvana” are mCp-something. He is a big fan of Valvo, and those in fact have been the best. They leave Telefunkens in the dust.

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma OP
1,010 posts
 

@newbee 

I listen sequentially for about 15 minutes each, one cut from each of three LPs. Then we pick three or four pairs that he leaves behind for several days. That gives me time to burn each set in for 12-24 hrs, then listen for 2-3 hrs. 

unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma OP
1,010 posts
 

@mulveling 

You have seen my leopard on the Koetsu fb page. 

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