2. vintage
  3. 193389-88940

A question about tube rolling

Hi Ya’all,

At the ripe old age of 70, I have discovered tube rolling.

Up until now, I have simply been about getting good tubes, say Telefunken or GE or Siemens, stick ‘em in there, and phougheadaboudit

I bought a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 because I just wasn’t getting what I thought I should be getting out of my Koetsu Onyx and Leopard from my Beard P505.

Out of the box (pun unintended), the Tube Box made an immediate improvement.

But, still not quite there. I looked at the tubes and they were unbranded. So I went shopping on eBay and found a pair of Telefunken red tips for $280.

It turns out that the seller lived a half hour away, and so he drove them over to me.

it also turns out that he had 10,000+ tubes - or so he says - in his basement. So he comes with the set that I paid for, and three other sets, and he leaves them with me.

As some of you know, I’m a cheap rat bastard who refuses to spend more than $0.50 on lamp wire for my speaker cable (ok I lied, I do have Monster cable). So even though he explains that he’s got exotic Valvos and Teslas and who knows what else, costing up to $1,900 a pair, I stick to a $500 ceiling ‘cause … I’m a cheap rat bastard … and there’s also that law of diminishing returns sorta thing.

A week later, he brings me four more sets.

One of those sets cost $800. And they sound, well better (although there was a situation where a $50 tube that he brought for me to put in one of the line stages of the Beard sounded better than the $250 one.).

I have listening sessions once a week, so I got my guests involved one evening. I used David Crosby’s “Laughing” from “If Only I Could Remember My Name” and we listened to it over and over, with each of the four sets of tubes, and I explained to them what to listen for in the bass guitar line, the pedal steel at the top, Crosby’s voice, the chorus (and particularly if Joni Mitchell’s and Steven Stills voice were distinctly recognizable as THEIR voices, with nuanced inflection, not just voices separated out but not of any distinct characterization), the acoustic depth and colorations around each voice and instrument, if everything was planted in a specific location on the soundstage, and last but not least, the size - width, breadth and height - of the stage. Then I asked them to pick the set that they liked best and to explain why, according to each of the parameters.

They had so much fun doing that, that going forward I will be keeping tubes of different signatures just to do these exercises with new guests, as they volunteered after the listening sessions that they felt that they learned to hear in a way that they never considered before.

Which was exactly the point of the exercise.

But I digress.

The tube guy said he had some more tubes to try out.

This time I say “Ok. Hit me with your best shot. Throw the very best pair of tubes you have at me. Just sock-it-to-me! (There I just dated myself). And just don’t tell me what they cost!”

So he comes with five sets. Some are really interesting, they have … getters? And one is that best shot. And one is a set that he says are a little weird but he thinks that they will work.

So, up until now, I have been able to hear differences in each set. And some are better, some worse, some do some things better, some do other things better, some are just different.

Of the five, I just go straight for that best shot.

Holy. Efffing. Crap.

Let me say that again, for effect.

Holy. Effing. Crap.

I had thought that my system was up there. And, well, it is: one can say that it is detailed, precise, deep, exciting, dramatic.

This is now… I guess the words I would use are true, and honest…and effortless. Whatever it is, it’s a whole other level.

I did not think that just one pair of 12AX7s or ECC83s could make such a humongous difference.

They are from 1957, and cost twice as much as the Tube Box that they are going in

So, the question is …. There was to be a question, remember? It says so right up there at the top, in the subject line. The question is: I guess I know the answer. Let me put it this way: has anyone had a similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, and should I be paying these kinds of prices for them?

128x128unreceivedogma
unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma OP
1,010 posts
 

I asked the expert audiophile “DeepSeek” 😝 to: compare the Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 to more expensive phono stages. 

ANSWER: 

When comparing the **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** to more expensive phono preamplifiers, it’s important to consider the additional features, build quality, and performance improvements that come with higher price points. Below is a comparison of the Tube Box DS2 with some of its more expensive competitors:

---

### **1. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Sutherland Engineering PH3D**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design, aluminum chassis, and upgradeable components.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionally clean, detailed, and transparent with a neutral sound signature.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading and gain.
  - **Build**: High-quality components with a focus on precision engineering.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The PH3D offers superior transparency and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for audiophiles seeking a neutral, high-fidelity sound. The Tube Box DS2, however, provides tube warmth and is more affordable.

---

### **2. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Audio Research PH9**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, rich, and detailed tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Audio Research PH9**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionaly detailed, dynamic, and spacious with a tube-driven sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with extensive adjustability.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Significantly higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The PH9 offers a more refined and spacious soundstage, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a fraction of the cost but lacks the PH9's ultimate refinement.

---

### **3. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**:
  - **Sound**: Clean, detailed, and neutral solid-state sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading.
  - **Build**: High-quality components with a robust design.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The Black Cube SE II offers exceptional clarity and detail, making it a favorite among audiophiles who prefer a neutral sound. The Tube Box DS2, with its tube warmth, is better suited for those seeking a richer, more colored sound.

---

### **4. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Simaudio Moon 310LP**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **Simaudio Moon 310LP**:
  - **Sound**: Clean, detailed, and dynamic solid-state sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable loading and gain.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The Moon 310LP offers superior clarity and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides tube warmth and is more affordable.

---

### **5. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. EAR Yoshino 324**
- **Tube Box DS2**:
  - **Sound**: Warm, detailed, and dynamic tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with adjustable settings.
  - **Build**: Dual mono design and upgradeable.
  - **Price**: Mid-range.

- **EAR Yoshino 324**:
  - **Sound**: Exceptionally warm, rich, and detailed tube sound.
  - **Versatility**: Supports MM and MC cartridges with extensive adjustability.
  - **Build**: Premium build quality with high-end components.
  - **Price**: Significantly higher than the Tube Box DS2.

**Verdict**: The EAR Yoshino 324 offers a more refined and luxurious tube sound, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a much lower cost but lacks the ultimate refinement of the 324.

---

 

### **Conclusion**:
The **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** holds its own against more expensive phono preamplifiers by offering a warm, detailed tube sound and versatile features at a mid-range price. While more expensive models like the **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**, **Audio Research PH9**, and **EAR Yoshino 324** offer superior refinement, detail retrieval, and build quality, they come at a significantly higher cost. The Tube Box DS2 is an excellent choice for those seeking tube warmth and high performance without breaking the bank. However, for audiophiles with larger budgets and a desire for the ultimate in sound quality, the more expensive options may be worth the investment.

tomic601's avatar
tomic601
13,096 posts
 

deepseek is deaf…

mattw73
79 posts
 

@unreceivedogma If I came off negative about your preamp my apologies. It was only when you mentioned your cartridge I pictured a "high end" preamp in my head. But in retrospect I shouldn't even have made the comment.. I've never heard your phono preamp. I thought I did mention something like if it's bringing you joy & you found something that meshes well with your system then that is a great thing. 

Me, you, or anyone else doesn't need to justify what works for us, our components, & our room. Especially now in this current age of audio where there is good sound to be had without the prices of 20 plus years ago. I personally feel we've truly reached the age where money doesn't dictate how well a component will sound. Speakers may be a little different..but just my opinion. I hate to see the thread turn to something outside of the Tube topic. Wasn't my intention to take it off track if I did. My bad if my comments come off as critical. That's not what I'm about. 

unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma OP
1,010 posts
 

@tomic601 

DeepSeek is an aggregator of information sans attitude. 

tomic601's avatar
tomic601
13,096 posts
 

AI is also an aggregator of misinformation, sometimes hallucinating facts, including citations of precedent in legal proceedings… but hey…. ?
 

Please do forgive me my David Crosbyesqe snark….

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