Well, that’s where human discernment comes in. Perhaps you are challenged in that regard? You certainly excel at virtue posturing.
I find it to be a very useful research tool. I rely on my cognitive capacity, such as it is, for the rest.
A question about tube rolling
Hi Ya’all,
At the ripe old age of 70, I have discovered tube rolling.
Up until now, I have simply been about getting good tubes, say Telefunken or GE or Siemens, stick ‘em in there, and phougheadaboudit
I bought a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 because I just wasn’t getting what I thought I should be getting out of my Koetsu Onyx and Leopard from my Beard P505.
Out of the box (pun unintended), the Tube Box made an immediate improvement.
But, still not quite there. I looked at the tubes and they were unbranded. So I went shopping on eBay and found a pair of Telefunken red tips for $280.
It turns out that the seller lived a half hour away, and so he drove them over to me.
it also turns out that he had 10,000+ tubes - or so he says - in his basement. So he comes with the set that I paid for, and three other sets, and he leaves them with me.
As some of you know, I’m a cheap rat bastard who refuses to spend more than $0.50 on lamp wire for my speaker cable (ok I lied, I do have Monster cable). So even though he explains that he’s got exotic Valvos and Teslas and who knows what else, costing up to $1,900 a pair, I stick to a $500 ceiling ‘cause … I’m a cheap rat bastard … and there’s also that law of diminishing returns sorta thing.
A week later, he brings me four more sets.
One of those sets cost $800. And they sound, well better (although there was a situation where a $50 tube that he brought for me to put in one of the line stages of the Beard sounded better than the $250 one.).
I have listening sessions once a week, so I got my guests involved one evening. I used David Crosby’s “Laughing” from “If Only I Could Remember My Name” and we listened to it over and over, with each of the four sets of tubes, and I explained to them what to listen for in the bass guitar line, the pedal steel at the top, Crosby’s voice, the chorus (and particularly if Joni Mitchell’s and Steven Stills voice were distinctly recognizable as THEIR voices, with nuanced inflection, not just voices separated out but not of any distinct characterization), the acoustic depth and colorations around each voice and instrument, if everything was planted in a specific location on the soundstage, and last but not least, the size - width, breadth and height - of the stage. Then I asked them to pick the set that they liked best and to explain why, according to each of the parameters.
They had so much fun doing that, that going forward I will be keeping tubes of different signatures just to do these exercises with new guests, as they volunteered after the listening sessions that they felt that they learned to hear in a way that they never considered before.
Which was exactly the point of the exercise.
But I digress.
The tube guy said he had some more tubes to try out.
This time I say “Ok. Hit me with your best shot. Throw the very best pair of tubes you have at me. Just sock-it-to-me! (There I just dated myself). And just don’t tell me what they cost!”
So he comes with five sets. Some are really interesting, they have … getters? And one is that best shot. And one is a set that he says are a little weird but he thinks that they will work.
So, up until now, I have been able to hear differences in each set. And some are better, some worse, some do some things better, some do other things better, some are just different.
Of the five, I just go straight for that best shot.
Holy. Efffing. Crap.
Let me say that again, for effect.
Holy. Effing. Crap.
I had thought that my system was up there. And, well, it is: one can say that it is detailed, precise, deep, exciting, dramatic.
This is now… I guess the words I would use are true, and honest…and effortless. Whatever it is, it’s a whole other level.
I did not think that just one pair of 12AX7s or ECC83s could make such a humongous difference.
They are from 1957, and cost twice as much as the Tube Box that they are going in
So, the question is …. There was to be a question, remember? It says so right up there at the top, in the subject line. The question is: I guess I know the answer. Let me put it this way: has anyone had a similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, and should I be paying these kinds of prices for them?
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I asked brien why I should pay more by factors of 2 to 4 or more, when I can find the tubes on eBay for $250 to $400 a pair. His reply: “You’re right you can find cheaper ones. But how did you come to know these tubes even existed? How did you come to know this exact pair is terrific not on paper but in your system? How many sets of extremely rare and valuable tubes were lent to you for weeks on the journey to finding these tubes? How much is trust worth? You aren’t paying just for tubes. You are also paying for me and the unique service I provide. You’re also playing at the top of the market. Some of my clients will drop $5-$10k every six weeks. They buy things like this to stockpile them.” I am not inclined to disagree with him. He strikes me as a good and earnest guy … and deadly serious about tubes. His knowledge base is absolutely insane and that alone - as he says - is worth something. Please remember to say that I referred you. Back to the Pro-ject Tube Box that you sniffed at. If I am able to hear a dramatic difference between the German Telefunkens at $280 and the Dutch Valvo mCt or whatever they are at 5 times more, … in other words, if the Pro-ject Tube Box is capable of revealing it, then it seems to me that’s a valid thing to do. I did a DeepSeek search for comps, then did much more research on my own, and it seems that the Tube Box, like the Sumiko MMT compared to, say, The Arm, sounds nearly …. maybe not as, but nearly … as good as the stuff costing far more. And that’s an economic circumstance that I have to live with. theaudioatticvinylsundays.com |
@unreceivedogma Of course you can hear a difference in tube rolling with the Pro-Ject. I didn't say you wouldn't. But if you were to "roll" phono stages, I think you could find more meaningful differences. Especially important with a lo-MC cartridge is the mating of transducer to MC stage, in particular. That's simply my experience, with many phono stages, Koetsus and non-Koetsus. ALSO tubes. It strikes me as odd to be ready and willing to do such exotic tube rolling (it's fun, no doubt), but to completedly shut off suggestions of a better phono stage. We don't have a magical traveling van handing out trial phono stages, but still. I've experienced the rush of tube rolling, plenty. In the end, for me, its euphoria wears off faster than finding that next better component, or tranducer. A lot of it is simply "flavor" of sound, like so much seasoning on food. Once you get used to it...on to the next flavor. Again, I would kindly posit you could leave some open mind for trying a SUT or head-amp at some point (just MC gain); you can even use them with your existing tube box in MM mode, and that shold be fine. With lo-MC's I find there is a bigger variance to be had with the MC side of amplification than MM. This is especially true for fine Koetsus, like you have. Also - take it easy man, nobody here is out to get you. No idea WHERE that swipe at tomic came from, and there's no need for it. |
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