What CDP gets really close to vinyl?

Oh btw Muralman as follow up to your Listz comments above. Last night I pulled out a Mercury Living Presence remastering of Ennesco and Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies compliation Antal Dorati conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, haven't listened to it in years and certainly never heard it like this, let me tell you! The 2nd Rhapsody was quite mind boggling in the way this DAC presented the dynamic contrasts in this piece which is really a piano piece. The opening grabs you in the gut, very rich, tonally accurate organic presentation.

On really great piano recordings I am hearing the dynamics and weight as never before on my previous lowly digital set-up but I must say is rivaling my vinyl rig. The verdict is still out on the high frequency performance compared to vinyl especially with orchestral music as I am still experimenting around and putting this DAC through the paces. Also ordered a few of the recommended tubes, we'll see but I am REALLY impressed now.

I was not aware there is a spec dynamic range limit for vinyl?

If there is, it is quite old and hence not surprising if newer CD redbook specs surpass it.

Seems to me though that in practice the only limit for vinyl dynamic range is how much modulation can be represented in the grooves and practically how well any record player might be able to track it.

Most record players from the golden age of vinyl were not particularly excellent trackers like more modern tables that ironically came about mostly late in the game and as the tide of digital started to appear on the horizon. So practically if you wanted to sell lots of records, the dynamic range had to be limited in order for people to practically be able to play the record.

Of course there was a small niche for audiophile recordings even back then that raised the general bar, but again this became more of a specialty niche for recordings way before digital ever reared its revolutionary head.

Oh course you are right Mapman, and I am referring to audiophile pressings as well as the Mercury and RCA's of old. There are many great recordings from that golden age. The decline was "dynagroove" and the like in the early to mid 60's. Many of the recordings are limited for the reasons you state. It is too bad that the technology of the playback of the time wasn't in step with the engineering and quality of pressings, especially in the 50's when the LP was in its infancy. When recordings and console stereos became the norm in households there was that need for a standard and the recordings suffered.

In reality there is no theoretical limit to the dynamic potential of vinyl playback. I agree with you that on certain music and for sound effects digital can do things vinyl can't. The important thing so far as dynamics in my comparing the two is the gradations between say from pianissimo to a rising cresendo or in the other direction and lending a believability that what you are hearing is almost real. Too much dynamic emphasis is an exaggeration and typically a product of a system imbalance but it is also an effect that some want to hear. Telarc really exploited this with their early recordings. I have a few. I certainly never heard anything like these recordings in a concert hall. It is the micro dynamics and the shifts. Digital in general never did this convincingly to my ears but a few times in other systems but I am now hearing this effect with the Havana all the while maintaining the tonality and natural decay in the soundfield, that continuousness. The Havana presents these dynamics gradations extremely convincingly although I'm sure some would want to hear more "detail", the music is all there to my ears. That final gap between real and playback is the real space and air that will probably never be realized, we just get a bit closer. My real excitement about this whole experience is that really decent digital playback has seemingly arrived at a reasonable price point.

I still have some great vinyl piano recordings that I doubt will be equaled by any of my digital recordings but this still remains to be seen. The Havana is DEFINITELY going through a breakin. This is generally apparent in most but not all electronics in my experience but in this particular piece I am hearing an IMPROVEMENT, not change, in weight and body which adds a greater sense of realism when there are large dynamic shifts in the music. I suspect this is much of what I am hearing and it is impressive but still subjective in this discussion.

"It is too bad that the technology of the playback of the time wasn't in step with the engineering and quality of pressings, especially in the 50's when the LP was in its infancy."

That is a fact.

Hifi and stereo recordings were a big deal in marketing terms back in teh 50's and perhaps even early 60's and the quality of many early recordings reflect that.

Then, the usual economic realities and true mass marketing set in. Meanwhile the playback equipment continued to improve to fill the needs of those in the minority who cared about ultimate sound quality.

I look at the bright side. I can afford my quest for good sound much better today than I could back then and so I am blessed. Those old vinyl hifi recordings and CD remasters of old stuff that never really sounded so great back then all sounds better than ever to me these days.

I really do not see much to complain about in this area these days. We have the best of both worlds available at our fingertips.

"Those old vinyl hifi recordings and CD remasters of old stuff that never really sounded so great back then all sounds better than ever to me these days"

Then again maybe its them ole ears, eh Mapman? I hear ya:)