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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
meiwan
399 posts
 
I use the Calyx dac having replaced the original EE minimax. Must admit the Calyx is more open/airly than the EE. Also had a take home experience with the EE and the Moon 300d. Actually quite a different presentation via my iMac/pure music.

However, for TV watching i bought a little Brik DAC ($200) and hooked it up to my NAD blue ray player and Moon i1 amp. Wired up so that I could switch back and forth between the internal NAD dac and the Brik. Absolutely no difference. Then I hooked up the Calyx and did the same thing. Struggled to find a difference, although the Calyx was a little smoother.

My take is the source (player) and front end cables make a 'huge' difference in whether or not DACs sound the same or different.
mrtennis
3,295 posts
 
as have said in the past, the placebo effect is alive and well. you can convince yourself that component a sounds better than component b.

someone else may come along and disagree.

however, i think that when it comes to tubes, there are differences.

i find it hard to believe that a ss piece sounds like a classic tube component.

one more thing, regarding the minimax sounding better in solid state mode.

no one says in what respects the sss mode sounds better.

in my opinion "better" is one of the more misued words in the english language. i think it means "i prfere". it's just a way of saying "in my opinion i prefer" . however, it leaves a sense of ambiguity because since better is so subjective, there is no communication.

so, all i ask, is when someone says a sounds better than b, describe the differnces, please.
david12
1,454 posts
 
It seems to me having followed DAC threads for a while and listening to a few, that a lot of the differences may arise out of connections. DACs and computer audio seem unique in having a plethora of connections, partly because many of them have real problems. These lie of course, in jitter, clocking, whether the clocks in the DAC or computer are utilised as in Synchronous and Asyncronous USB, for example.

May not a lot of the difference be in the care in implementing firwire SPDIF or USB connections and which connection is best to the source?
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almarg
9,670 posts
 
02-14-12: Audiooracle
First of all it depends on the resolution of the system and the acuity of your ears!
True, obviously, to some extent. However, it should be kept in mind that the ability of a system to resolve musical information, and its ability to resolve differences between components, while obviously having some degree of correlation, are two different things.

For instance, a digital transport that provides a highly jitter-laden signal to the DAC will be more resolving of differences between DACs than a transport that provides a signal having minimal jitter. A transport having an inaccurate output impedance will be more resolving of differences between DACs than one having an accurate output impedance, everything else being equal. A S/PDIF digital interconnect cable that provides poor shielding against emi/rfi pickup, or that has high shield resistance that can contribute to ground loop issues, or that has poorly controlled impedance characteristics, will be more resolving of differences between DAC's than a better cable. A preamp having low input impedance will be more resolving of differences between DAC's than one having higher input impedance, everything else being equal. A comparison between a given group of DAC's may turn out completely differently depending on the happenstances of the risetimes and falltimes of the output signal of the transport, and the propagation velocity of the interconnect cable. Etc., etc. A great many other comparable examples could be cited.

My point being that while it is easy (and very common) to blame the quality of a system when there is a reported inability to perceive differences, that is not necessarily what is going on. And in fact an inverse correlation may often exist between the ability of a system to resolve musical information, and its ability to resolve differences between components, cables, tweaks, etc.

Regards,
-- Al
wildoats
339 posts
 
To get to a certain level of resolution and quality I think you need to spend $1K for a dac or cd player. Any of the 10 or so popular items will do. Main difference is options you need. To get to another better level you need to spend at least two/three times as much. Then it's the stratosphere for small improvements. IMO
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