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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
The point I attemped to make, aside from subjective impressions is that there ARE clearly differences that I contend can be readily discerned in a substantive manner, in my example, by 2 different listeners in 2 separate systems with the same conclusion over EXTENDED listening. When familiarity with a component in a given system has been established it is easier to discern the differences and can be done so in much less time than say in an initial AB comparison. What does that tell me? Whether or not the differences are better or not is irrelevant for sure. What is relevant is that the conclusion is obvious which raises additional questions regarding system differences and taste perhaps but NOT in my opinion differences in the components. I am not trying to prove anything other than to offer a completely different and hopefully :) objective perspective and conclusion than the OP. I have been at this a while as well and my system and ears are in tune from extended familiarity with one another. I couldn't disagree with him more aside from my value judgement which is totally subjective and irrelevant for the sake of this discussion.
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Tubegroover....

Actually, we AGREE! I agree there are differences and certainly they bear out more in long term listening between units. What I'm trying to point out is these differences are VASTLY smaller than the differences between other components at the same price point. Yet we read reviews that seem to give the impression that the differences are big.

I can name plenty of speakers that cost the same, yet have HUGELY different presentations. And I can confidently say the same for amps and pre-amps. But the gap has narrowed down quite bit in the land of digital sources. This was very obvious to me when I compared a modified 300 dollar Oppo player to a Audio Aero Prima CDP and wasn't all that sure that the Oppo was the lesser player. In the end, after extended listening, I did like the Prima better. But I also noted that the little Oppo did nothing wrong, sounding just a tad thin on my system.

I think some folks will prefer the Rega to the W4S 2 and some will like the Minimax + or the far pricier ARC. They're all great DACs. But none are big improvements over the other. Changing the power cable on the Rega made a bigger change in sound than switching between the Rega and W4S 2, at least in the sense of it being instantly audible.

I'll say one more thing...hope nobody wants to shoot me for it! After hearing the pricey ARC DAC and a few others I feel you'd have to be crazy to spend more than 1-2K on a DAC. The leapfrogging may be small, but it's fast and the returns diminish too far for me. You can get so much more by continuing to improve other aspects of the system. I'll upgrade to Merlin VSMs WAY before I'll bother with another DAC...as one example.

I do suggest trying the Rega DAC. It needs a long break-in, but has a solid soundstage presentation and is fairly faultless, at least with my Merlin TSM/Manley system. Other DACs would best it on one point or another, but the Rega is very solid overall and even reminds me of a turntable at times.

Cheers....and thanks for the good comments. This has been a nicely polite thread!

Rob
learsfool
1,215 posts
 
Nice post, Bryon. I can't resist commenting, though, that I think many audiophiles place too much importance on Build Quality. This is much more than slightly subjective, IMO. "Better" technology isn't much of the time, if "better" refers to sound quality instead of something else. Many audiophiles will refuse to even listen to a piece of equipment that they think doesn't come up to their often extremely arbitrary "build quality" standards. Many others equate Build Quality with Cost, and assume that higher cost equals "better." For me, the bottom line should always be, does it sound better or not? And of course "better" is almost entirely subjective, as Mr. Tennis has been reminding us alot lately.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Well Rob I certainly wouldn't disagree with your comment that the differences in 1k budget DACs would compare to differences in say speakers. We have been around on this before and I certainly appreciate you taking the time on various threads to give your impressions based on your listening experiences. What caught my eye is the following in your opening:

"The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units!"

So far as the Rega and ARC units are concerned I can't comment but with regard to the other two units my point is I can now IMMEDIATELY hear the differences, within 10 seconds, so can my friend, there is no struggle at all. Of course the differences will be less apparent depending on the music but there is a difference in tonal balance that is quite apparent to me. Again, I do have a clear preference as it seems you have a preference for the Rega over the other three. My second choice in my stable is the Havana which clearly isn't as detailed but has that image density and weight that I hear in the Wyred. Of course others may come to a different conclusion as to which they might prefer as is the case in all things audio. We pay for the subtle differences, often times a lot more than a budget DAC costs. To my ears the differences are less subtle for the two in question than your impressions and so, here I am again to offer another viewpoint. I only wish I could hear the components in question in your set-up and you hear mine. Maybe at that point we would be in agreement? :) Cheers!
chesebert
67 posts
 
I am going to break down my own experience over the years into DAC quality vs $ and note my observed threshhold for each level of sound quality (highly subjective and based on my own system or system I am familiar with)

<$2000 - obvious shortcoming in one or more areas (tried a bunch, benchmark, lavry, stello, dacmagic, bunch Chinese-made crap, etc)

$2000 < $10,000 - no obvious shortcomings, generally sounds pleaseant. However, the music does not sound real. Sometime you are trading detail for musicality, focus and solidity for wide-deep soundstage, holographic imaging for intimacy, etc. (also tried a bunch, ECD-1, BADA, Ayre C5XeMP (sub for QB-9), Bricasti, Akurate DS, Transporter (this I have), etc)

> $10,000 - now we are talking! generally superb sounding, not really trading any aspect of sound production, some DACs are voiced differently than others. Sound at this level generally sound real, musical, with all the detail, but presented in a natural and real way. (tried some, Esoteric K-01/2, PD MPS5, Klimax DS (I have this), dCS Puccini/uclock, Orpheus Lab OneSE, etc)

To OP, if all you do is dither around $1k stuff, I am not suprised you find no difference among DACs - perhaps you do get what you pay for?
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