companies that modify equipment...opinions

"Mapman - you talk like the engineers at the larger high-end audio companies are gods and somehow know all"

Well, I had a SOny CD player once and it was fair at best.

Don't care for proprietary expensive Apple stuff much either.

The mhdt DACs I use are pretty decent sounding though and appear to have pretty good build quality for reasonable cost.

I know mods can be made to improve but as source only to external DACs Squeezebox Touch punches way above what its modest cost might indicate. Of course, that line has been discontinued. Probably too good to make a profit on as it was. I hope someone else picks up the technology and goes with it. How about you Steve? A lot of people like the Squeeze gadgets! THough a pretty good performer, I suspect a lot of the underlying software may have accumulated a lot of unwanted baggage though over the years and may need to start over. That's a software development task that I would personally find fascinating to undertake!

I have a Denon player/recorder that makes pretty good recordings though I have not used it in over a year to play back since going with music server. No doubt that can be bettered, in that it is not even top of Denon line I suppose.

Its hard to generalize. I do think engineers at certain modest sized specialty companies like AUdio Research and Bel Canto for example do know what they are doing and why they do it the way they do in an attempt to offer quality and value. Obviously, no large company selling to the masses is likely to make the absolute best anything and prefer to leave that niche market to more niche vendors.

THere is always good better, and best. By what margin does the best digital outperform other very good products? For how much more cost? Who will see the value?

ALl these things matter.

"I know mods can be made to improve but as source only to external DACs Squeezebox Touch punches way above what its modest cost might indicate. Of course, that line has been discontinued. Probably too good to make a profit on as it was. I hope someone else picks up the technology and goes with it. How about you Steve?"

It is unlikely that I will produce mass-market source devices. I dont do software anyway.

I actually modded a few Touches in the past for customers, but they were way too fragile inside, easy to damage.

The Sonos is a nice alternative to Touch, and if you add a Synchro-Mesh reclocker, the performance is identical.

Since you named names, why dont you read the review of the AR DAC8. Nice component, but they evidently needed help on the digital part based on the problems exposed. This is actually a really good case-in-point.

"By what margin does the best digital outperform other very good products? For how much more cost?"

Very good question. It turns out that in most cases there is a leap in performance of digital, both cables and DAC/USB components when you get to the $1000-2000 mark. Many consumers dont achieve this leap in performance in their systems for various reasons, but primarily: Poor preamp that masks good SQ and poor digital source with high jitter that screws everything up from the beginning. Another thing that holds back many DACs is the poor implementation of USB interface.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

"Since you named names, why dont you read the review of the AR DAC8."

I'll grant that digital is clearly not the forte of Audio Research. Not the first place I would look for the best nor best value digital solutions. I'm sure there are people quite happy with all AR electronics out there, including digital sources though.

As an owner of an ARC tube pre-amp, they can do tube amplification devices pretty well though I would say! :)

Mapman - Agreed, their amps are impressive. They are one of the companies that makes tubes sound as good as SS, only better. BTW, I have a customer with DAC8 that really likes it, but he told me you must only connect one digital source at a time, never two at once. If the reviewer had known this, it might have gotten a better review.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Mapman - you talk like the engineers at the larger high-end audio companies are gods and somehow know all. Could not be further from the truth. If these guys were really that good, particularly with digital design, they would have much better jobs in the computer industry and get stock options from Apple etc.. They would not be at small companies doing low-volume consumer audio.......

This perception that the manufacturers know what they are doing in every aspect of the design is a myth. There are a few really good designers out there however, but even they are not good at everything.....

I wish I could mark this up in neon and have it permanently attached at the top of every page.
Steve knows what he's talking about here folks.
There are a handful of truly brilliant designers in the industry. And, every once in awhile, the industry gets a little "lucky" when someone with experience that goes way beyond the needs of audio decides to contribute their unique skills. But even then, there are areas that can be improved in their designs.
But the idea that the worlds best engineers are designing audio equipment should be laid to rest. I understand how all of the marketing hype (B.S.) and the pricing on a lot of this gear would give that impression. But it just isn't true.
Yes, there are a few world class designers out there. But they are the exception, not the rule.

(by the way, we don't own anything made by Steve. We're just agreeing with him whole heartedly. Our own system was chosen first based on competent design principles and from designers who do have experience well beyond high end audio. And then it was modified with contributions from a variety of other professionals outside the audio industry but with expert knowledge in specific areas of interest to us.)