$800 Cartridge Shootout and Upgrade Path

Dougdeacon,

I didn't know that the tonearm cable should be uninterrupted for higher-quality MC cartridges, like the ZYX. I didn't know that cable breaks would degrade the sound. With the cable design of the Moerch DP-6, how much degradation would result by this design? Would it be a small amount or would it be noticeable by someone like me? The Moerch has the flexibility of interchangeable arms to match different cartridge compliances, but what good would that be if the cable disrupts too much of the fidelity? And do you think the Origin Live Encounter could do double duty by handling both the Shelter 501 and the ZYX?

In regards to ZYX, Robert Levi has done handsprings over the ZYX R100H, whereas Stereophile's Sam Tellig felt it was uninvolving, or something like that. Also Michael Fremer was underwhelmed by the more expensive ZYX R-100 FS, and Art Dudley's response to the ZYX R-1000 Airy S was somewhat lukewarm at best. My concern about the ZYX is that it might be too neutral and may not be involving enough, especially when I think about how neutral sounding my speakers are all ready and may be pushed into sounding perhaps sterile.

No, I don't listen to hard rock, techno, punk, or electronica. I listen to classical music and jazz. I even have a Perry Como recording! (Now how bad is that?) But I don't understand how the Shelter 901 would not be good for classical music or jazz?

Thanks for your help as always!

Doug
Frank discontinued the model 1, replacing it with the DPS which is cheaper than the 1, but the DPS offers easier setup and borrows some parts of the model 2, but with a wooden armwand. The model 2 has always been on his line. In fact, he hinted at its resonance dampening properties in the other "Schroeder arm" thread. All his arms have the thread suspension and magnetic dampening and therefore share a similar family sound.

Artar1
Thanks. Those spks follow the principle of less is more. Tube power with high efficiency full range spks is audio heaven. ;) I play all kinds of music, classical, jazz, rock, pop, new age, except metal.

I'm not sure who the dealer/agent is where you are. If its the US, then I think its Audio Advancements. I'm not in the US, but it should be below $2k.

As to matching, the model 2 has an effective mass of 12g and should match 80% of carts out there. You can do some calculations about the cart/arm resonance to see if they match your cart of choice. For carts like the 103r(low compliance), Frank supplies a brass plate which increases the mass by 6g and would allow you a wider choice.

I'm using the Dynavector Te Kaitora low output mc. I had the TK bef getting the Schroeder. Well I like the Dyna sound, its a bit of a mix between the liquid, warm school and the strict analytical cool school, but has excellent dynamics when matched with an appropriate phono stage. The Karat D17mkII has a similar sound, but the TK is fuller and warmer.

Artar 1,

I haven't heard a Moerch so I can't speak about its sound, except to note that one possible limitation. Obviously Raul likes it and he's heard a lot of arms. It certainly finds its way onto a lot of high quality rigs. Ditto for the Shelter 501 BTW. It's okay with me if you buy one! :-)

The OL Encounter has an effective mass of 14g. Excellent for Shelter, Denon, Koetsu. Probably okay for ZYX though borderline. My arm has 11g effective mass and its a perfect match for a ZYX judging by resonance frequencies. (These can be easily measured with the HFN&RR test record.) An Encounter/ZYX would resonate near the bottom of the "ideal" 8-12 Hz range. What kind of floors and TT support will you have? The more stable the floor and support the less a slightly low resonance frequency is likely to matter.

Good that you're doing your research on the ZYX and other carts. Dudley's Airy review seemed more positive to me than your characterization. Remember how he kept saying things like, "Many of you will rush out right now"? The flaws or shortcomings he listed at the end were IMO precisely due to the weaknesses of the three rigs he tested it on. (He partly used a Rega P3 for pete's sake. That's beyond ridiculous.) This review and another one he did of the Galibier Quattro were discussed here recently at some length. Search and ye shall find!

I only vaguely remember Fremer's review. I vividly remember Arthur Salvatore's. Despite his abrasive style, I trust Salvatore's ears and skills more than Fremer's. When he describes something I've heard, I generally agree with his description. The only way one could be "underwhelmed" by the Airy2 is if it were poorly set up, poorly matched or if (as Raul correctly likes to say) one prefers something other than the sound of natural instruments and voices.

The Shelter 901 was the cartridge du jour last year and the year before. That's why I bought one for my first MC. Since then I've heard it side by side with top Koetsus and my ZYX. The Koetsu's slightly burnish the leading and trailing edges of every waveform. This gives them that fabled, gentle warmth or glow, which is indeed seductive if not quite accurate. The 901 does the opposite in a sense. It overshoots on leading edges, which slightly etches the edges of everything and makes it all sound a touch over the top. Very exciting, very detailed, not at all warmish in any respect whatsoever (except on a Schroeder Reference. That combo was magical).

I've only heard your ML's once, and that in a shop with a poor setup. Even worse, they were brand new and certainly not broken in. I'll trust your characterizaton of course. (BTW, do you hear a disconnect between the bass drivers and the midrange/treble. I thought I did but I was only there for a minute.) If the ML's are the slightest bit bright or edgy or tizzy, a Shelter 901 may emphasize that. A Koetsu will round it off a bit. A ZYX will play it pretty much straight down the middle, nothing emphasized but nothing hidden either.

BTW, there's a good chance my 901 will be available for a cheap demo in your home fairly soon. Keep your eyes pealed to this forum. That would be worth more than all this talk!

Tonearm mass and cartridge compliance are normally shown in the manufacturer's specs. Formulas for *estimating* the resonance frequency of any particular combo can be found by searching at VA.

Artar 1,

I haven't heard a Moerch so I can't speak about its sound, except to note that one possible limitation. Obviously Raul likes it and he's heard a lot of arms. It certainly finds its way onto a lot of high quality rigs. Ditto for the Shelter 501 BTW. It's okay with me if you buy one! :-)

The OL Encounter has an effective mass of 14g. Excellent for Shelter, Denon, Koetsu. Probably okay for ZYX though borderline. My arm has 11g effective mass and its a perfect match for a ZYX judging by resonance frequencies. (These can be easily measured with the HFN&RR test record.) An Encounter/ZYX would resonate near the bottom of the "ideal" 8-12 Hz range. What kind of floors and TT support will you have? The more stable the floor and support the less a slightly low resonance frequency is likely to matter.

Good that you're doing your research on the ZYX and other carts. Dudley's Airy review seemed more positive to me than your characterization. Remember how he kept saying things like, "Many of you will rush out right now"? The flaws or shortcomings he listed at the end were IMO precisely due to the weaknesses of the three rigs he tested it on. (He partly used a Rega P3 for pete's sake. That's beyond ridiculous.) This review and another one he did of the Galibier Quattro were discussed here recently at some length. Search and ye shall find!

I only vaguely remember Fremer's review. I vividly remember Arthur Salvatore's. Despite his abrasive style, I trust Salvatore's ears and skills more than Fremer's. When he describes something I've heard, I generally agree with his description. The only way one could be "underwhelmed" by the Airy2 is if it were poorly set up, poorly matched or if (as Raul correctly likes to say) one prefers something other than the sound of natural instruments and voices.

The Shelter 901 was the cartridge du jour last year. That's why I bought one for my first MC. Since then I've heard it side by side with top Koetsus and my ZYX. The Koetsu's slightly burnish the leading and trailing edges of every waveform. This gives them that fabled, gentle warmth or glow, which is indeed seductive if not quite accurate. The 901 does the opposite in a sense. It overshoots on leading edges, which slightly etches the edges of everything and makes it all sound a touch over the top. Very exciting, very detailed, not warm in any respect whatsoever (except on a Schroeder Reference. That combo was magical. Cmk's suggestion of the 2 should be taken seriously).

I've only heard your ML's once, and that in a shop with a poor setup. Even worse, they were brand new and certainly not broken in. I'll trust your characterizaton of course. (BTW, do you hear a disconnect between the bass drivers and the midrange/treble. I thought I did but I was only there for a minute.) If the ML's are the slightest bit bright or edgy or tizzy, a Shelter 901 may emphasize that. A Koetsu will round it off a bit. A ZYX will play it pretty much straight down the middle, nothing emphasized but nothing hidden either.

BTW, there's a good chance my 901 will be available for a cheap demo in your home fairly soon. Keep your eyes pealed to this forum. That would be worth more than all this talk!

Tonearm mass and cartridge compliance are normally shown in the manufacturer's specs. Formulas for *estimating* the resonance frequency of any particular combo can be found by searching at VA.

Dougdeacon,

Let me say that your postings have helped me a lot. And also let me say that I apologize if my last post to you sounded like a district attorney in a cross examination. That was never my intention.

My interest in the Moerch began with the review done by Paul Seydor for TAS, and has continued with the many favorable reviews it has received in the Vinyl Asylum. Nevertheless, the Shroeder, Graham, Triplanar, and SME arms have all been received with even more enthusiasm because they represent the state of the art for that sytle of arm. The Moerch is one step below the best offerings from these companies. I think many would acknowledge that. At the same time, however, it is cheaper while still delivering very good performance, interchangeable arm wands, and good looks. But the Triplanar is a handsome and high-performing arm indeed, maybe one of the best.

In an earlier post, you mentioned that an uninterrupted tonearm cable would provide the best fidelity. That may be true. I was curious how much fidelity loss would we hear? Or maybe it would be something that would completely escape my attention?

Of course I was kidding about not telling you about buying the Shelter 501. : >) I am sure that you won’t be troubled by what my final decision will be.

I must admit it’s downright frustrating that an expensive tonearm is limited to a few desirable phono cartridges. The OL Encounter will work great with the Shelter, Denon, and Koetsu, but not so well with the ZYX. Ahhhhhhhhhh! : > (

My floor is a heavily padded, wall-to-wall carpet over four inches of rebar-reinforced concrete on top of earth. The floor is very stable and solid. My rack is steel and glass and is quite sturdy and heavy. The turntable would be placed upon a double-decker, laminated hardwood base in which sand would be the damping material between the two hardwood boards. The turntable will not be placed between my speakers, but the room will have two self-powered subwoofers. (I gotta get the bottom octave you know!?)

So I either decide up front what cartridge I want to buy and just live with it, or I buy something like the Moerch, which may have a small limitation with its cabling, and then enjoy the possibility of using the arm with a wider range of cartridges.

I would not call the ZYX flawed in anyway, and I am sure Dudley never intended to say that, nor did I read that interpretation. Seemingly, he preferred a cartridge that had more texture, nuance, and layering I believe. He felt that the ZYX very accurately reproduced what was on the record surface with steady neutrality while minimizing surface noise, a very big plus, and while providing excellent tracking. And what’s wrong with that I ask? So it seems that the "house sound" for ZYX is no sound at all while providing a quite ride and very good tracking. I would not call that flawed.

As for Fremer, well he likes a lot more excitement than me. I still get a kick out of Perry Como. (Wait a minute; the nurse is coming with my medication and my light gray Cardigan. Now that’s better.) Who knows how he set up the ZYX or whether his tonearm was a good match. I know he uses a very expensive Simon York with a Graham 2.2 arm.

Dudley also has a fairly tricked-out Linn turntable, if that matters. But let’s face it: the Linn is not better than a Teres 265 with a Triplanar VII! No indeed!

And I guess we can discount whatever Sam Tellig says, right?

>>Despite his abrasive style, I trust Salvatore's ears…<<

I don’t know what to think of Salvatore. I feel he’s too dogmatic, rigid, and iconoclastic for me. Your advice and the advice given by Twl is much better balanced and more objective in a rational way.

>>The 901 does the opposite in a sense. It overshoots on leading edges, which slightly etches the edges of everything and makes it all sound a touch over the top… Very exciting, very detailed, not at all warmish….<<

If the Shelter 901 sounds over the top in your system, how do you think it would sound in mine? I will have to pass on this cartridge. Did different loadings have any effect? Did you try a lower resistance setting to try to soften the top end?

>>I've only heard your ML's once, and that in a shop with a poor setup. Even worse, they were brand new and certainly not broken in. I'll trust your characterization of course. (BTW, do you hear a disconnect between the bass drivers and the midrange/treble. I thought I did but I was only there for a minute.) If the ML's are the slightest bit bright or edgy or tizzy, a Shelter 901 may emphasize that. A Koetsu will round it off a bit. A ZYX will play it pretty much straight down the middle, nothing emphasized but nothing hidden either.<<

The Martin Logans can have a transistorized, metallic, even bright sound if not set up correctly, broken in, or used with the right electronics. I have heard many different models over the years driven by Threshold, Audio Research, Krell, Classe Audio, Adcom, Premier, Spectral, Proceed, McIntosh, Sunfire, and Mark Levinson. Threshold sounded dry, sterile, and lifeless. Audio Research, not the Reference Series, had a steely quality in the upper midrange that gave me listening fatigue. Classe was lovely and sweet, but I got a headache after about 40 minutes. Spectral was even worse: I got a headache in only 20 minutes. Premier was well balanced but very bright, as was Adcom (big surprise). Proceed and Mark Levinson give a nicely warm, well balanced, rich, and nuanced presentation. I can listen to my Proceed AMP 5/Martin Logan Ascent combination for three or four hours with no fatigue whatsoever. The same is nearly true with the Sunfire, which has the most open, transparent, uncolored, and clear sound of any amplifier I have ever heard, but it could use a little more warmth and sweetness to give it a tad more soul. The McIntosh (MC402) was a real stinker. It was warm and overly rich, almost to the point of being diffuse. The bass had a billowing quality, the soundstage was deep but not very wide, and the highs were tipped up with a very rich additive glow that was most unnatural.

Little wonder that the best demos of ML speakers I have heard were with Mark Levinson and VTL.

In my system, I plan to add a tubed amp for the ESL panels and a solid state amp to drive the woofers. I plan to use a passive biamping arrangement with an attenuator affixed to the RCA inputs on the solid state amp to help balance its gain with that of the tubed unit.

As for any discontinuity between the woofers and panels, I have never really detected such a problem, but then the Martin Logan Ascent uses a single ten-inch, aluminum-coated driver with a robust magnet that creates a very quick, tight, and percussive bass. I never feel that the ELS panels are out of synch with the woofers. I only have about 18 months of experience with my speakers with an average listening time of about two hours a day, so there’s always the possibility that I might detect this discontinuity over time.

In your system, I would suspect that the ZYX would fit well with the B&W N803/C-J MF2500A/C-J PV-11 combination. (I Own a PV-14L, so I know a little about the Conrad-Johnson sound.) In this situation, a very steady neutrality would be in the best service of your system’s overall synergy.

I think I will go and watch a movie now. All this typing is making my arm hurt!

Thanks again!