$800 Cartridge Shootout and Upgrade Path

Hi Guys!

Wow! There’ve been a lot of posts today, and that’s for sure. I am so swamped at work. We decorated our area today for Halloween. Tomorrow I will be coming as a clown. Maybe that’s fitting so long as I don’t make a big fool of myself. So because of the increased workload today, I am writing a shotgun response to everyone.

Rushton,

Thanks for the best wishes. I am very excited about the choices I have made. It’s a little more than I want to spend, but then I won’t have to worry about upgrading later. I think what I have chosen will engage me more in the hobby of analog because I will have a lot more invested. I will say more about this later.

Jphii,

Thanks for the confirmation and the support; it means a lot to me. What I have chosen strikes a good balance, even though I did go over budget. But that has to be a common story for most of us posting here. Somehow the choices I have made for turntable, tonearm, and cartridge feel right to me. I am not so worried that I haven’t heard them in advance. I have listened to good mass-loaded designs not too long ago, and I am sure the combination I have chosen will not disappoint me. Thanks.

Raul,

You mentioned in a previous post that you have heard many turntable/tonearm combinations and that you own many phono cartridges. I would be interested to know how much you have invested in analog. It sounds like a lot, maybe fifty-to-one-hundred-thousand dollars? You mentioned numerous cartridges, turntables, and tonearms. Did I understand you correctly that you actually own all of these items now, or you have simply heard them over the years?

I think in regards to Twl providing an explanation for the notion that the phono cartridge is limited by the quality of the turntable has already been done. I think Twl has already answered that question sufficiently. Are you asking for further elaboration on a subject that has been thoroughly explored?

It’s perfectly okay with me if you consider me to be inexperienced with all things audio. Somehow I am unaffected by that comment. But to label Twl as such, I feel, is an oversight on your part.

>>You have a " long road to home ". Both of you have 30+ years ( at least this is what you told us )of experience in audio and you are ( still ) at a low level of the music reproduction at home: I can't understand why you are not growing up a little faster or maybe you already think are right on target.<<

I am wondering if a language other than English is your primary means of communication, for I am a little puzzled by your tone. I would like to believe that you, as a person, don’t go out of your way to be argumentative with others. Is there any truth to that?

>>Artar1: " you can't go wrong with the 103R ...", this was your advise to Flg2001: sure he can go wrong with that garbage of cartridge.<<

There are many who would disagree with you. You seem to have a very strong opinion here. Are you trying to save us from ourselves?

>>Dear friends: I almost always try to " work " on real facts, my advise to you is that try in the same way: " live experience ".<<

I feel most of the time you are operating from a position buttressed by opinions, which is okay, but I feel a little uncomfortable when you try to claim that you suppositions are, indeed, facts.


Dougdeacon,

Please accept my apologies for teasing you once again. I was speaking “tongue and check” when I was blaming you for my going over budget. I was not at all serious. But then again…

Also thanks for your support; it has helped me a lot in figuring out what I really want in a turntable, tonearm, and cartridge. And I think your prediction about sonic bliss will come true. Happy listening, and thanks again!

Dsiggia,

Thanks for your kind words and support. I appreciate it!

I think you are right about Raul’s position, but the funny thing is that I am not sure what it is. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe Raul maintains that the cartridge is the most important element and should be chosen first, or something to that effect. Hmmmm…

>>Furthermore, you say "four of 20+ persons are really experts on the subject, when I say experts is because they have a high resolution audio system and they have " live experience "<<

Let’s see, if Raul is wealthy, which he might be, then I would like a high-resolution system that would meet his standards. I would be more than happy to provide an address where donations could be made! : > )

Raul,

>>Dsiggia: First I'm not defending my position. If you don't believe or can't understand the " live experience " issue, that's your problem and that's why you " can't learn something ".<<

I feel this to be argumentative and inflammatory. I am curious as to what prompts you to express yourself in this manner?


Letch,

How do you like the Michael Green rack, and how much does it cost? (I am sorry about asking that question.) I don’t have suspended floors, thank goodness. My listening room has a four-inch concrete slab covered by think carpeting. There is no bounce that I am aware of.

I agree with you about not making a hard-and-fast rule about sprung tables in regards to suspended floors. I think you engineering friend might be on to something.

>>1. Table -Teres 255 or 265 or Galibier Quattro ALU
2. Arm - Shroeder DPS
3. Cartridge - Shelter 501 II<<

This looks to be a fine list of components. What about Redpoint? It’s similar to Galibier and looks cool too.

>>Raul - I would not say this is the matter. It is not that Twl and Doug and Artar are "soft and kind", the fact is that they understand that this is a dialogue between people with common interests.<<

I like the emphasis placed on dialog. I try not to deny the experiences of others. These experiences are subjective in nature and are the basis by which we choose audio components.

>> They also understand that there are many relativistic factors here, components, power, rooms, musical tastes and different tastes concerning what kind of sound they want.<<

Right on! I couldn’t have said it better.

>>They are not here to lecture others on right or wrong. They are not concerned with who thinks they're a biggie smarty-pants or an "expert". I find your tone and your dogmatic approach to be more of an authority control thing and while I appreciate the fact that you care about this hobby, I can't take your knowledge seriously when it's presented as the only "truth" or the only "fact".<<

You make a very good point.

>>I am not an audio expert, that I will freely admit. I have been going to concerts for 27 years and have seen thousands of live concerts of all kinds.<<

Wow! That’s a lot. I think that makes you an expert, at least to me.

>>I have been collecting records for 34 years. I have years of experience in record retail and used to be a classical buyer for Tower records. I have only been an audiophile for 8 years. What does all this make me? A person who loves music enough to devote a large part of their existence and most of their finances to it. I am trying to develop a system to play back the music I love and I very much appreciate the help I get on forums to make up for my lack of "audiophile" expertise.<<

It seems to me that you’re on the right track. Yup! No doubt about it! Thanks for posting Chris. You rock too!

Jimbo3,

I don’t think Raul is from Massachusetts.

Dan_ed,

Thanks for your support. As you know, I like your system too. Is it almost finished?

Mab33,

Yes, I will not be getting the Schroeder Model 2, but that does not mean I feel the Illustrious is the only tonearm that should be considered. I will explain more at a later time. I have to return to work; I have a manual I need to finish before I go home.

4yanx,

Thanks for posting, and I got your e-mail! The price I quoted is off the web site that you have suggested. Now maybe the cost is lower, or maybe I am in error. At any rate, it won’t be until next April before I can actually buy my analog front end plus the phono stage. I need to keep saving.

The moral being, don't always accept the price that you read on a website as gospel without proferring a personal call.

Artar,

I just bought a Grand Prix amp stand for my "mediocre equalizer" (tube amp) and before I go set it up I just wanted to respond to yr post about Redpoint. While I like the Redpoint look, they do not post prices on their website and somehow I got the idea in my head that they were out of my league price-wise. Looking back on it, I can't remember how I got that idea and am going to email them right now. I was intrigued by the idea that I could go to Colorado and hear the other two tables (though of course this would be in completely arbitrary contexts concerning associated equipment though ). Thanks for pointing this out, I should look into it further before I write them off.

Thanks for your kind comments, I feel that we are all in this together and I prefer the feeling that this is a conversation where we all report on our experiences and work to develop the questions and answers we seek.

Oh yeah, Michael Green doesn't make the Basik racks anymore. I saw one of the heavier "Clamp Racks" here used on the 'gon for $365 recently and it's a better rack than this one. My rack is very rigid and fine for a...basic rack it's nuthin' fancy. On the rack I use Black Diamond cones and pucks, Michael Green brass cones and Bright Star little rocks as well as a Bright Star Big Rock for the Oracle and a Townsend Seismic sink for my CDP. So I try to get a handle in various ways to get the sound I am looking for. After trying out this amp stand I may look into a Grand Prix equipment rack but they ain't cheap! Before I go that route I will upgrade source components though, so the rack I have is gonna have to do for now. Like I said, I had to custom build a plywood/foam platform to isolate the turntable from footfalls and have acheived this goal so I feel that this current set-up is good for now though it's good I live alone because the platform has zero WAF!!!

It's cold today here in Seattle but all the tubes in my amp, pre and phonostage outta warm me up.......now to wrangle my amp up onto this stand......

Chris

Chris,

LOL. I got it! You know the reference to your tube amp being a “mediocre equalizer.” What a sense of humor you have. Why, I was thinking of starting another thread concerning the virtues of having a 10-band, tube-based equalizer in one’s audio system. Now that would be really cool!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the Redpoint web site not listing prices for their turntables. I figured that if I couldn’t afford the Galibier tables, I wouldn’t be able to afford the Redpoints either. But, you could always give them a call. Who knows, maybe they are cheaper. And if Redpoint is in Colorado with the other two manufacturers, then you could make it a “threesome” visit so to speak. Going to Colorado will clear up a lot of things for you, and it will be fun too.

Similarly, I went to Washington this last summer to visit Bob Carver in Snohomish. It was an eye-opening experience. I really didn’t know what to expect. He was very gracious and accommodating toward my wife and me. I learned a lot and came away being very impressed with the sound of his equipment and utterly fascinated by his success as a designer and as a businessman. He also told me that he is working on a new tubed amp (a "mediocre equalizer") that will deliver 600 watts into 8 ohms! I saw a large shipping box that looked like it had over 50 KT-88s!

By the way, I didn’t know that you lived in Seattle. What a great town. I grew up in Lynnwood, and I lived there between 1953 and 1971.

I, too, think that we are all in this together. If I could get all of my answers from reading TAS and Stereophile and could depend upon what my dealer told me, I wouldn’t have stared this thread. The truth is that most dealers I have met know less than me about audio. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but rather I am only stating how little most dealers know about audio equipment, and especially about analog. I could have gone to The Analog Room in San Jose, a fine place actually, but then I would not be able to purchase the Teres or an Origin Live Illustrious. However, they would have found something suitable for me, but it would not have been very cheap. The Analog Room has some really expensive gear.

I’m sorry to hear that Michael Green no longer makes racks. I guess that I will have to make one myself, although my wife thinks that I will most likely never get around to it. She may be right!

What tube amp are you using? I have Martin Logan Ascents; you know, "low-resolution" gear. I would like to go tube, and I was wondering if you had any suggestions. I was thinking about the Quicksilver V4 Monos, Music Reference RM200, McIntosh MC275, or Conrad-Johnson Premier 140. The problem with the last two choices is cost. I was also thinking about the Jolida JD 3300A. It’s new and replaces the JD 3000A. It costs about $5,000.

I hope things warm up in Seattle! But you may have to wait until March for that.

Artar1

Artar,

I didn't mean that Michael Green no longer makes racks, just that he no longers makes the particular model that I own. He makes heavier "clamp" racks, where you can screw the shelves down onto a component. I guess putting cones inbetween. He still makes all sorts of "tuning" acoustical products:
http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/catalog/mech.htm

As far as building a rack, well the platform was a project of desperation to play records and it mainly involved getting Home Depot to cut the boards I needed.

I gotta say that this Grand Prix amp stand is blowing me away. I have a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 SE amp and the sound quality after putting it on this rack is stunning. The backgrounds are jet black and guitar plucks sound more palpable(I'm listening to 'folk 'guitarist John Fahey's Red Cross right now). There's more space around everything and I can hear deeper into bass and drums. I know that a stand doesn't have a sound so I'll just say that this one lets the amp shine powerfully.

As for amp recommendations, well I'm not that familiar with the amps you're asking about. My brother is a big McIntosh fan and has heard them with the ML speakers and really liked the sound. He was thinking about getting a pair of the Ascents since he's heard them quite a bit at his local dealer in Detroit but decided that they would be too big for the size of his room. His living room is kinda small and though I told him to knock out a wall to make it bigger, I think he's gonna get stand mounted monitors and leave the wall where it is. Go figure. Perhaps you should get Carver to hook you up with 600 watts, that outta drive those Logans!!

As for the weather, I don't want it to warm up! I consider the winter great tube weather! I gotta enough tubes to warm up my apt good! I shut my radiator off completely because the winters here are mild(I grew up in Michigan and Minnesota) and the tubes give me what heat I need. (Well I do have a steam pole in the kitchen I can't turn off).

My dealer here (Tim at Experience Audio) has been patient and understanding with me and carries some nice equipment. He's the one who turned me onto the Grand Prix rack. When I said I wasn't an expert before, I meant it. I have listened to music, gone to concerts, toured with bands, worked in record stores and scoured the country from end to end for records but it wasn't until '96 that I discovered high-end audio. I have pursued more record collecting than audio equipment but in the last couple of years I have been trying to seriously upgrade my system. I've been to various dealers in cities I've lived in and been to a few Hi-Fi shows to hear equipment. Now I'm on the cusp of making some serious purchases and availing myself of the knowledge of others to help me out. It's tough to hear all the things you'd wanna hear! And I firmly believe that if I buy a "garbage" cartridge, because it's what I can afford, that when I upgrade to a better one, the experience with the lesser one will have been worthwhile. We accumulate knowledge through experience and I've found that each time I get something else, an amp, a cable, or whatever, that I hear a little better the next time. That's the learning curve!

Redpoint is in Arizona (the reason they split into Redpoint and Galibier was the distance between the two partners in Redpoint since one was in Colorado) but I have some personal business that will send me to Arizona in the spring so who knows.....I'll let you know...

Chris