Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Raul,I am glad you state it is only your "opinion".Now we are getting somewhere!

... Also,you did a nice web-search regarding your "latest" post info on the Ascents....

That does not replace my extensive exposure to the product....BTW,I completely disagree about the Eidolon's superiority,as I specifically auditioned them,and compared.I have also spoken with numerous folks who felt the Ascent was the superior design,and they owned both!Information "not" gotten by doing a web-search,but in actual conversation.
Also,one can "easily" make a case for your own speakers having poor time domain issues(among other things),as they are used by you(just an example).You have a front firing tweeter,a back firing tweeter(without much room behind it)and an add on super-tweeter,which will be a disadvantage(technically)if not extremely close to the front tweeter.Of course,I have not heard it,but according to "your own" way of viewing the "technical" issues,it may not be very good.Just my "assumption"!-:)
I am being sarcastic,to make my point,in case you do not follow me.

The ONLY reason why I seem to be making it "a big deal",is because you are totally in the dark regarding actual negative comments,which do NOT stem from actual long term exposure,and knowledge of the design.You are very knowledgeable on many matters.This is NOT one of them,and both you and I know it!!

Actually,and in truth,if you go back about a week or two ago(on this thread)it is YOU who came out of left field and attacked my input regarding a comment made by me two years ago,regarding the "sub" issue!A surprise to me,at the time,especially coming from you.

Believe me,I am simply giving you some "heat",but have absolutely kind feelings towards you,as always....

You are simply going to have to be prepared for some folks to challenge your input when it is "wrong",and accept it.

BTW,I have the "ruler flat" read-outs on the speakers,but am not about to photo/scan it just to prove my point.You can use this to gain some silly advantage,if you want.

I look forward to suporting you on future threads,like I usually have in the past.Just post accurate information.

Best to you Raul,
Mark

Dear Mark: Like I already say it: just an opinion, pure democracy and no big deal about!!!

" Constant impedance ", eh?: is this a fact or an " assumption " ?. I already take advantage: jaja-ja!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Hi Raul, since you did not want to play in my thread "In room response", I am back. First off I have nothing against you. Just the bull--it you keep expounding. You are contradictory, not just with me and others who post here, but with yourself (perhaps the biggest sin. Next to lying to yourself?), in almost all of your posts and I find it offensive. Especially when you are unable to verify or answer the most simple, albeit hard, questions. This thread "do you need a subwoofer",by itself, is full of it.

You say, "My audio/sound reproduction priorities are: neutral and natural tonal balance/pitch, Accuracy ( low distortion, low noise, no colorations, no cliping, grain free, liniarity, no compression, etc...), timbre, dynamic, focus and soundstage . My whole audio system target is to be nearest to the recording!!!"

"My audio/electronics priority is: accuracy/synergy/confidence/constant/."

Tell me Raul, How do you have any of those priorities when your in room freq response is +- 20db? Accuracy, how is that accurate? Natural tonal balance and pitch, how does one have accurate pitch and a natural tonal balance when related freq are +- 20db? No cororation, isn't a plus 15db or minus 20 db freq response a coloration?
Dynamics, you can't have maximum dynamics when you have dropouts of -5 to -20 db across the sound spectrum and +50 to +20db peaks limiting your volume levels.

Raul, you know for a fact that a resonably good, or better yet, a great freq response is one of the most important properties for audio reproduction. One of the basic tenets of audio reproduction is a response of 20-20,000hz. Thats why you do it in your preamp, thats why you want full range speakers or subs and super tweeters, because it does not matter where the error takes place the result is the same. One of the reasons why, if I were to buy your $12,800 preamp, I would pay for a +-001% freq response. Where there are changes in freq response you do one of two things. In a dip you loose detail, decay, dynamics, and the ability to get pitch and a "natural sound" amongst other things.
Where there are peaks you obscure detail by overpowering other freq and it makes the music sound "too loud" amongs other things.
Combine these two problems and and you can hear why it is so important and it does not matter where the comes from! The effect is still the same.

Another problem, of modal ringing, needs to be addressed. And there is only one way to obtain this, and it aint frilly curtains and doilies. You have to stop the low freq reverb that obscures music and imaging.

.
An in room response of 20-20,000hz response is preferable, within reason +-2.5db (and thats debatable) along with a subjective in room response that is pleasurable to the ear. And please please don't hang me with a numbers game.

Also the importance of modal ringing is not to be underestemated. This must be obtained at a certain volume level if it is to approach anything like a real "audiophile" level of dynamics and realism. Those are two goals that are hardly unreasonable.

So, how do you have all of these important priorities?
The answer is you don't. You cannot have those priorities in a room with pretty curtains, doilies and a pure wool virgin rug. It ain't happening and untill people like yourself stop fostering this false info and admit the truth, you and others will not be even close to any accurate reproduction. You said, "thanks God I have a good room" "I am really lucky about", well you better be thanking God or some virgin saint of acoustics. And luck? I am pretty sure that as a scientist you really don't believe that luck has something to do with room acoustics, and its effect on audio reproduction, because the acoustics for your room are no different than any other room. Now you can continue to foster this bull that you have a great room and an accurate system to others but I for one don't believe anything you say. An untreated room is a disaster pure and simple! And yours is untreated.. so guess what? It is a disaster. Now you may treat the room up to a point that is good for you, with frilly curtains and sofas in front of your speakers but untill you admit the reality you will never progress.

Why is this such a "hard" subject? I don't know, but my guess is that you really dont want to see the Emperor Wears No Clothes. It will force you to admit certain truths that you find disturbing and against your belief system and dogmas. And it will reveal the hard cold fact that any system in an untreated room is a mess, which will be enable you to continue to foster overpriced equipment to an unsuspecting public.

What do I find all of this so disturbing? It is that your desires (in you stated goals) are exactly the same as mine! Why do we find it so hard to come to a meeting point?

In this thread you veered off course to save face, make contradictions and false claims even when others are agreeing with you. I am sure IMD is a problem, but please show me the problem and then reveal to me the answer, how do I lower IMD? How low do I need to go? How do I measure this? Or do I need your calibrated golden ears?

Raul, why do you find it so hard to answer my questions? Are they not relevent? Do they reveal too much that you are uncomfortable with? You are a manufacturer of very expensive equipment, do you not want me to believe that you have nothing but the best? Do you not want me to believe that when you test certain equipment, worlds best tonearm and 25 phono cartridges etc.. that you system is so inaccurate that it is useless. Would it not let the cat out of the bag to reveal that you system can not sound even anything like accurate when you have frequency deviations of plus/minus30db?

I say to you, lets start over with some meaningful dialog. And while we can continue to agree to disagree we can also be truthful with ourselves and others, in that way we can progress toward our quest.
I am sorry if you really did not know any of this, and really are ignorant of room acoustics and their effects. If that is the case you really need to do some searching.

Bob

Acoustat6, I must confess that I use two velodyne DD12 subs in stereo to my Talon Hawk monitors and the sound is fantastic. I was wondering if there are two distinct prioritisations between you and Raul here:

Raul focuses on the system from front (cartridge, cdp, tuner etc) to back (speakers and subs). Your concern seems more with what happens to that sound when it leaves the system. Of course the problems of acoustic fluctuation also often applies to the actual venues at which one hears live performances.

I do agree though that room acoustics are a critical issue. I just prefer to focus on having the best system I can and allowing it to grow into the differing listening environments that I will be able to afford over our lives.

Hi Dgob, I too believe, that the front end components are very important, you can't have "good" sound without them. The problem is audios dirty little secret and it inability to admit that without great in room response you cannot get even remotely close to great sound. And it is continually perpetuated through statements like "I Have a great room" when no acoustic treatment is applied.

The difference between a live venue and a "reproduced" venue is that the live venue sound only alters the sound at that theater, move to another theatre and the sound changes. At home, the recordings take on the colorations of the room and every recording is affected equally. Worse yet is comb filtering and decay times, treat the room properly and all of these proplems are decreased, and yes, then you are finally able to "listen to the music". If you remove these distortions then you are truly hearing the recordings and your equipment for what they are, and therefore accuracy (at least as accurate as your system allows) is obtained.

Bob