Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Hi Dgob, I too believe, that the front end components are very important, you can't have "good" sound without them. The problem is audios dirty little secret and it inability to admit that without great in room response you cannot get even remotely close to great sound. And it is continually perpetuated through statements like "I Have a great room" when no acoustic treatment is applied.

The difference between a live venue and a "reproduced" venue is that the live venue sound only alters the sound at that theater, move to another theatre and the sound changes. At home, the recordings take on the colorations of the room and every recording is affected equally. Worse yet is comb filtering and decay times, treat the room properly and all of these proplems are decreased, and yes, then you are finally able to "listen to the music". If you remove these distortions then you are truly hearing the recordings and your equipment for what they are, and therefore accuracy (at least as accurate as your system allows) is obtained.

Bob

Hi Acoustat6,

I still feel that the vehemance in the argument is a bit disproportionate. I just read the thread that seems to create many of the current issues and Raul states that he HAS treated his room: "I'm very luckily and don't have (I fix it) many room problems related." I'm not certain how extensive or successful this 'fix' now is in his system but it hardly seems grounds for assuming a complete acoustic disaster!

I feel that there are potential compromises in our efforts to capture live music and distinctions along the whole audio chain: original performance; unique venue; particular recording process; replay system (Hifi); receptive environment (both 'subjective' - hearing ability, preferences and expections - and 'objective' - listening room, stands etc). Our two most manageable and consistent parts in this chain would be the hifi and listening room. Maybe this typifies your argument and I do agree concerning the industry but we are all aware that Turkeys rarely vote for thanksgiving?

However, your point about the "live venue" could make any argument for neutrality redundant. If our "reproduced venue" becomes our individual "theatre" then the question of the performers that appear there would largely remain one for our hifi systems. This on the basis of your argument that there is no one, absolute "live venue" and performers will sound different at distinct venues/theatres. Such questions of compromise and individual judgement might therefore affect all points in the audio chain.

I probably have to say this however, as I have lived with my hifi in various and distinct acoustic environments and know that I can get a consistency through the best equipment and worse of environments. A customised listening room would however be the icing on my cake. Maybe for fairer times!

I happen to have a carefully voiced dedicated room(thank goodness)of which I am very satisfied finally,but after alot of sweat/experimentation....However I have heard "some" room/set-ups that have little actual treatment,or attention to acoustics,which sound "marvelous"!

A close friend, owning new Magico Minis,lives in an apartment building.His room is also a general living room,and has ordinary furniture,a T.V. and over sized coffee table,full rug etc...But he is a dedicated hobbyist!

Of course his "biggest problem" in getting a good sounding acoustic is his "wife" -:)...Just kidding,but you get my point!....She actually deserves a medal,for allowing the "hobby" to develop to such an extent in the ONLY spare room available(there is a kitchen and bedroom too).....But there are still acoustic issues which will "never" be addressed....Yet,and yet..it sounds "fabulous"...What can I say? It really does!....My friend is a "wine collector",so maybe his generous offerings are one reason I like his sound SO much -:)..I'm going there soon,I hope.

My friend Sid Marks(of Mercury Living Presence fame,as the reviewer for TAS....and I "ONLY" mention him in the context of his "expertise and high standards",an understatement actually)is NOT one to go out of his way to treat a listening room....He actually puts his efforts into still acquiring interesting LP's,to add to an almost unmatched collection,which takes up most of "his" premises(he is a bachelor).But he is VERY critical of "anything" taking away from musical authenticity.I don't question him anymore.He's proven himself too many times.

Yet(like Raul most likely is very fortunate to have),his room is "absolutely" fabulous!!I mean everyone lucky enough to hear his set-up(which defies logic,it is just SO GREAT)cannot believe how good the "basic" room "allows music to develop"!Who knows for sure how these things "always" work?...Looks can be deceiving!

He(Sid) has a big,bold,dynamic system which puts out alot of energy("probably" similar in energy output to Raul's)....but the acoustic energy just happens to be very well controlled,from the overall room dimensions/wall material,outer room openings etc.Yet,as I mentioned before,not much by way of acoustical treatment.Go figure!!

One cannot really assume a picture of a room,or description tells us everything about it's sound.I have NO reason to believe Raul has anything less than superb sound,really!The guy has been at this for a long time,and is passionate,like so many of us.

Also,a "true" friends group of hobbyists are usually relentless in being worse than "catty women" in critique!So,not to worry....if anyone has audio pals,they will keep you honest......And in my case,caused me to "build from scratch" a dedicated room!Lucky for me,interest rates were cheap at the time it was built.

I was unlucky(lucky in the long run,actually)in that when I bought my home,I thought the "first room" would be OK,but when my friends came over for a listen,they made the criticism on this thread look like a "peace rally"!!-:

Especially Sid who said..."It is a disaster Mark,and some day you will thank me for being SO honest"!!

The comments absolutely embarrassed me,in the poor attention I had paid to things(not to the actual acoustic,but the room's ability to let my speakers "breathe").

I've since solved my problem,but the ONLY way to know if one is successful,is from actual "in person auditioning"!

Best to all.

Just to note what I am now getting from using a pair of the Velodyne DD12 subs in stereo with my Talon Hawk monitors. I've used Audio Technica pneumatic footers beneath each sub and the sound is simply phenomenal. I think that the RL Hardesty article that Raul presents on the second page of this thread (07.02.05) just about sums up the impact of using subs for me. I guess that means that my answer is a resounding "YES", I definitely needed sub's - even though I had not realised it before!

Hi Raul, I am sorry ,sorry for the things I said to you. Since I said that truth is most important, I had a realisation why I am so "mad " at you, not Raul the man, but Rauls unsubstantial postings.

It started when I scrimped and saved to upgrade from my Lehman black cube phono preamp to a Hagerman Trumpet. I all ready owned a Shelter 901 MC cartridge, so I needed a step up. The Bent MU was my choice. At the time it was a popular combination and everything seemed right.

I recieved the units and started listening, playing with the resistors for impedance matching and enjoying the units.

I came across your post on why step ups are so bad and that in no way can you ever get good music from them. You said never will, no way. I read it and started thinking, well this comes from a man with much experience. So I started listening to what you described, thought about buying an active preamp. I never did buy the active preamp and perservered and soon forgot you negative comments about step up transformers and started to enjoy my system. Never did hear the problems you associated with them, the problems could still be there and perhaps some day I will have an active preamp and enjoy it as well. But there I was holding these black and chrome beauties, and Raul was pissing on my parade.

I then started noticing your other posts s.s. vs tube phono preamps, who needs moving coil when moving magnet is best, two subs vs one (at least this one I had covered with two subs), etc... never offering real ways to obtain good sound just negative critisim and negating whole topographies, that were not your way. And how with your test measurement ears, that I did not obviously posess, that I would never get great sound.

I started playing with the real problem of room acoustics. And came to realise it was not me, nor my lack of ability to buy multi thousand dollar equipment that was the problem. How could I not be happy with a $3,000 phono stage? Hey, that is multi thousand dollar! Are Jim Hagerman or John Chapman such idiots and that only Raul knows the true way. As i came to the realisation that without proper room acoustics you ain't hearing anywhere near what your equipment is close to being capable of. I realised what you are hearing and thought, poor Raul, no wonder he is so misguided.

So Raul, I believe that perhaps we both could learn something from this. I could be kinder and gentler in some of my posts and perhaps you could... well I think thats up for you to decide.

The good news is that I still have the Bent step ups and they do everything they should, they are real and the are spectacular.

The bad news is you still have a bad sounding room. There I go again... but really I am sorry and please accept my apologies

Have a good life, amigo.

Bob