Schroeder arms: order of merit?

Mr Teres:

I note that you have consistently recommended the Schroeder arms for your turntables. That's fine with me.
You have made a subjective determination based on the comparison of the two arms with different cartridges. Obviously, this is a flawed methodology of comparison: in order to make definitive statements about the relative performance of the Schroeder and the Phantom, it is imperative that the same TT/cartridge and front end/system are the same. Admittedly, it is entirely possible that the Schroeder may subjectively sound better on your TTs even with the same components/system. However, the opposite may be true in other systems. In audio there is virtually no absolute truth.

Gmorris: Of course the Reference/Phantom comparison was flawed. For this reason I was careful to not make any definitive statements about that comparison. I offered my opinions based on a less than ideal comparison, nothing more.

For my comments about the Schroder vs. 2.2 it's a different story. In that case the comparison conditions were about as good as you can get. There was clear consensus amoung a fairly large number of listeners. In addition the differences that we heard were obvious and significant.

The Triplanar vs Schroder comparison was a different story. I think that most of us favored the Schroder. But it was much more a matter of different vs good and bad. I expect that in a different system context or with different personal preferences the Triplanar may well have been favored. This was not the case with the Schroder vs 2.2 comparison. Regardless of personal perferences or system contex it's hard for me to imagine that anyone would favor the 2.2 over any of the Schroder models. It was not a subtle difference. It was not just a different presentation.

This whole debate seems odd to me. There is a group of people that have not heard a Schroder tonearm that bristle when they hear a claim that it is superior to the 2.2. I have yet to hear from anyone who has heard both and say anything different. Maybe I am wrong and someone will make the comparison and disagree. Thats fine. I just don't get the resistance to what seems like credible evidence.

Sirspeedy,
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While I think that it would be interesting to have Michael Fremer's opinion/review on the Schroder Reference, I can not see why it to be a positive move for Frank Schroder to get a review done.
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He has been continually overwhelmed with orders and has had a 4-6 month backlog of orders on his plate at all times for the last couple of years. He cannot increase production since all of the tonearms are hand made by him personally and he is already working overtime just to try to keep up with the orders he gets.
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Having a review done that was favorable would only put more pressure on him personally and create frustration for the new potential customers who would have to wait even longer than the 4 - 6 months.
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Having a review that was negative (not likely) would also not be beneficial.
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While I understand your desire to have a professional review since there is no place to hear a demo, I don't know how it makes sense when one looks at the big picture.
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I am fortunate to have heard the Schroder Reference 3 times (twice in my system) and it puts me at ease in making my decision. But if I had not been that fortunate to have heard A/B comparisons of the Schroder vs the Graham 2.2 and Tri-Planar (which are both great tonearms from my point of view), I would still be comfortable in making the decision to order a Schroder Reference based on the positive commentary of so many Audiogon members.
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In many ways I am much more comfortable with the opinions of Audiogon members who I have come to respect over the last few years.
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I do hope that Teres is able to do an A/B comparison of between the Phantom and the Schroder Reference while using the same top end cartridge.
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Rgds,
Larry
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Larry,

Your explanation to me is not really necessary,as I completely understand the aforementioned reasoning.As a businessman,myself,I completely understand Frank's actions(in general)and would behave similarly,if in his position.I have been criticised for seeming to "lean" towards the Schroder Ref,though truthfully I am a "ponderer",and love to mentally consider(sometimes over a good bit of time)possible ways to increase MY OWN listening pleasure.I haven't made too many mistakes,recently,in applying my idiosyncratic methods.These arm designs,on paper,really fascinate me,and there always seem to be great(sometimes heated)long running threads,that appear on this particular subject.What "fun"!!That is one reason I am so fascinated with the REF.A product that to me is rarer than the elusive Spice Bush Swallowtail!I have no complaints about any of this,and it is all part of the fun for me.I DO consider myself a potential buyer,in the future,but will look,carefully at all parameters,and competition.The REF is HIGH on the list.

I,also,could see making an arguement for the suspicious nature of the TERES statement,based on the timing of the just released RAVE review,of the Graham Phantom,by Michael Fremer.I have some very "contrarian" audio pals,who think along these lines,though I DO NOT.Also,it could be claimed that though TERES may sell all arms mentioned,he may make more profit on the Schroders.Before you get pissed at me Frank,I'm ONLY being the Devil's Advocate here.I DO NOT believe any of this,but these are considerations of some whom I know.I'm sure it was a coincidence.One can get some interesting feedback addressing certain subjects in not so "black and white" ways!Sorry!!Sorry?

To me,there are a couple of "pet subjects" that get my juices flowing.The arm/table/cartridge issue is one.It is amazing,to me,and has been demonstrated time and time again,to me,how critical this parameter is.The whole vinyl presentation relys on all of this,so I take the analog front end really seriously,as I'm sure all of us do.Everyone has their set of values.Best wishes!

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Sirspeedy,
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The only thing that Teres might be guilty of is having fallen in love with the Schroder Reference Arm.
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I have known him long enough to know that he would only offer a non-biased honest opinion. He is truly one of the good guys who is truly passionate about our great sport.
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I would assure you that Teres is far above being so calculating as to time a posting on Audiogon to coincide with Fremer's review. I will let him speak for himself, but I am assuming that it is merely coincidental.
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Rgds,
Larry
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