Shelter and Triplanar matching ?

Dear Raul

I have already tried this solution with my audionote MM IQ3 wich is the top MM cartridge at Audionote

Of course when my cartridge was worned and before beginning all this thread I had thought to go on either with HOMC or with a better MM cartridge wich could avoid me this problem of searching the good headamp or the right SUT;
I plug the wire of my tonearm in the jadis and that's all: SIMPLE

Two friends much more experimented than me have also the same jadis equipment ( MODIFIED ) with much better sources ( Goldmund ref + T3F +koetsus or shelter90X) and great loudspeakers and the result is great .
Of course they both use an head amp personnaly made for them by the first ingeneer from JADIS .

Most of the people who choose a Jadis JP80 Choose the MC version because they say it is the only one to choose and they add an head amp or a SUT.
Are they all wrong ?

It seems now there are two solutions in your opinion :

1) I keep my Jadis MC and I choose a MM or a HOMC cartridge
2) Change my preamp

The first one could effectively at least be tried but precisely with wich cartridge.

The second one is unconceivable for me today because it is a too much heavy change for me and because I think I still have a huge progression in front of me even with the jadis .

Of course Raul I really appreciate your effort to drive me in the good direction and I can't contest or approve your opinion as I have no references enough to do it .

Dear André: +++++ " Are they all wrong ? " +++++

This is one of my posts about:

+++++ " Dear friends: I'm not against the SUT " per se ", I'm against what the SUT makes to the cartridge signal: heavy degradation.

I like many of you used the SUT for many years till I discovery that the best SUT is NO SUT. I already try severals SUT's and all of them do a severe degradation to the cartridge signal.

Maybe some of you can think that an Audio NOte Kondo or Expressive Technologies SUT's don't have any problem: wrong, all SUT's have the same problems and all of them degraded the cartridge signal.

We have to understand that the low output MC cartridges was not build " thinking " in a low gain phonopreamps ( tube or SS ). The low gain phonopreamps like yours is only for CD, high output MC and MM cartridges ( btw: Music Maker, Sumiko and Audio Technica have great cartridges too ).
Tha's why I can tell you that if you have a low gain phono stage with a low output MC cartridge: you choose the wrong cartridge to go. For any one can enjoy and discover ( really enjoy ) the " magic " quality sound reproduction of a low output MC cartridge any one needs a high-gain phono preamp, with out any PATCH ( external/internal SUT/Autoformer. With out any mis-match between cartridge impedance and SUT that equalized the cartridge signal, always. ) ) no question about.

When you are using a low output MC cartridge with a low gain phono preamp it is like if you want to scale the Everest in a Ferrari Testa Rosa or like you want to swim in the sea dressed with a Tuxedo instead of a swimwear. Sure you can to swim dressed on a Tuxedo but: Imagine that!!! That's what you have on your audio system, it does not matters if your audio systems cost 10K or 500K. " +++++

Are they all wrong?, no, simple: they choose the wrong cartridge to go or the wrong phonopreamp for that cartridge. That's all. Is simple as that.

André there are a misconception and no-know how about and this is the problem why the people take the wrong " road ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Andre,

I partially agree with Raul and partially disagree:

- if you are looking for the very best phono performance and,
- if you are willing and able to spend enough money then,
- an SUT is not the way to go.

I have bettered my Bent/c-j setup, but it cost me about $6K to do it. That was for a privately designed and built preamp that is not sold commercially. If it were it would retail for $10K+ and it would be a bargain, since it easily beats commercial units costing a lot more than that. Raul's preamp is also a private design/build. I have not heard it but I expect it also sounds magnificent, better than any SUT. But that's not available to the public either, and it would probably cost more than mine if it were.

These private builds are better than most if not all commercial phono and line stages. Mine has been A/B'd against Lamm, Klyne and other top names, and it beats them all. I expect Raul's would too. The problem is finding a serious designer to work with. (If you were in Mexico or the USA it would be easy, Raul or could introduce you.)

If your budget is limited there are two reasonable approaches:

- use a MM or HOMC, as Raul suggests
- use a LOMC with SUT or head amp

I was very happy with the second approach. Since it cost a lot of time and money to beat it, I think it's viable and so do many other people. The pleasure I got from several LOMC's would never have happened without the Bent's, or something like them. I would regret it if I'd missed that.

Doug

Dear André and Doug: Today, I think that we are talking on the same subject where we agree at all.

Doug the small differences between your opinion and mine is ( I think ) my first hand experiences on HO cartridges: I owned at least 12 differents ones, I own around 14 ones and I heard it ( out of my system ) several ones. Sometime, you have to try it.

André, is up to you. Good luck on your cartridge hunt.

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.

Dear André: Here are some recomendations for a HO cartridge:

Reson Aciore, Grado Reference, Music Maker III, Clearaudio Virtuoso, Sumiko Blackbird, Goldring 1042. Now, if you can find, second hand, an Audio Technica AT 170 or ( better yet ) 180 OCC ATML you will be on " music heaven ". This AT MM cartridge compete with the very top low output cartridges and outperforms many of them.

This is an extract of a review on the Grado one: " "Without question these are the best phono cartridges out there,REAL BASS,smooth non tipped up highs(like moving coils) the music has meat to it,sounds very real,as if you could step into the music.And despite what others have said it is fast and articulate,plus you don't need a step-up device,(less between you and the music)."

The MM cartridges are like the " lost link " in analog. No body cares about and I think that no body cares about because the no know-how on the MM subject and a comercial bias through the LO MC cartridges.
Almost all professional audio reviewers and cartridge manufacturers are on the " comercial business ", where they obtain more money: LO MC cartridges.
The bias for the LO MC cartridges has nothing to do with a " better quality sound reproduction ", it has to do only with " money " and the no know-how of us the customers. The MM alternative is not only a very good one but in many audio subjects superior to the LO MC one.

Any one that want to tell me that the LO MC cartridges are better than the HO/MM ones has to prove it ( I think it could not ) and I can tell you that I can prove that the HO/MM technology is up to the task and a lot, lot, lot less expensive. This price characteristics is one of the issues why the people don't buy MM cartridges: " is to cheap to be good ". NO KNOW-HOW.

I almost never speaks in this forum about MM cartridges because almost all the people in this forum is out of that game, but this fact does not means that the MM subject is a " low-Fi " option. No, certainly it is not.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.