Questions about SACD vs.analog for classical music


I've just ordered a VPI Scoutmaster. A rather impulsive decision made at just the point when I was about to have my Sony 9000es modded. Not quite just at the point, but right after I removed my Hw-19jr/pt-6/Glider/blackcube rig from storage in order to get the parts ready for shipping to they new owners. I had what i thought would be my last night listening to the TT, after a several year hiatus, and you know what? There was that organic something, that harmonic coherence in certain recordings that I noticed only in the very best SACDs. In some of my LPs, that 'present' or 'real' feeling exceeded all but one or two of my SACDs (only the Rite of Spring on Telarc, a few tracks from the telarc classical sampler 2, and one other were superior to anything I heard on the VPI). OK, the SACDs were obviously cleaner sounding and more extended (I was using Stax sr-lambda phones) except when compared to a couple of the highest quality analogue productions lps I own, but it got me thinking: hey, if my humble jr. sounds this good now, I can only wonder how good one of the purportedly much improved high-end rigs would sound. The Sony mods would have cost upwards of $1300, but selling my jr. and lumping all that dough together and allocating it to a renewed involvement in analog looked, well, promising.
So I ordered a new Scoutmaster (at substantial discount) with the JMW-9 arm and am now by the way researching my options for cartridges and preamps. I've sold my blackcube, but have a Jolida JD-9 on load from a dealer, which sounds very nice with the jr. (the sold TT about to be shipped) - very vivid and harmonically satisfying, well articulated, etc - though it's not as quiet as the 'Cube and I even can hear some AM radio coming through my phones when I turn up my linestage preamp volume. But here I digress.
My main reason for starting this thread, aside from having some assorted questions about carts, preamps, and the like, is to ask for some objective and subjective opinions regarding the decision I just made. Bear in mind that my main interest is classical music, especially chamber (esp. string quartets, trios, wind quintets, etc) and piano with some orchestral, followed by classic rock and some Blue-Note era jazz. The SACD route seemed promising at first, and I told myself that, even though there were only a smattering of sacd recordings for many of my favorite classical performers (eg. Elly Ameling Soprano, Yo-Yo Ma, Rubinstein), there were so many truly talented lesser-knowns on the sacd scene (e.g. pianist Freddy Kempf on BIS, Csaba and Heisser on Praga digitals, and of course Paavo Jaervi on Telarc) that I deemed my chances of attaining long-term satisfaction with purely sacd (and a little redbook on the side) to be very good. Especially after sacd mods. As for classic rock, the SACD of the Police Synchronicity just blew me away (through Sennheiser HD600w/cardas cable).
But THEN it occurred to me that the only way to possibly hear my very favorite string quartet - the Vegh Quartet - in better than redbook fidelity was through vinyl. Ditto for numerous other performers who will never appear on sacd. Then of course there's always the Beatles, Stones, Jerry Garcia and others to sweeten the deal for vinyl. By the way, I sold my Ikemi redbook player in order to open up some new options and try something new. Even my girlfriend almost cried to see the Ikemi go, her having been converted just enough to an audiophile that she could absolutely see someone justifying having spent almost four grand on a source component (even a non-disc changer)
So what do you guys think? When my scoutmaster arrives, am I in for some visceral thrills and deep musical connection? I know that it's also dependent on the rest of my system, and so far I've narrowed cart choices down to the Lyras and the Shelters, leaning heavily towards the former. As for phono preamps I'm considering the Linto, Ear 834p mm/mc, and a few others including a modded Jolida JD-9 or something along those lines.

Is the scoutmaster, fitted with a $1000+ cartridge and a similarly priced phono preamp, going through Cardas golden reference into either a Bryston B60 integrated (and then to Sennheisers or B&wdm603) OR into a Stax srm-t1 tube driver of my Stax electrostats, going to 'knock my socks off' as suggested by Mike at VPI yesterday? How close can I get to SACD (especially to the 'pure DSD') fidelity through this setup? I know speed stability and noise floor will be drastically improved, giving tones accuracy and timbral accuracy, and i expect bass to be better and overall macro and microdynamics as well BUT... am I going to be able to achieve some of the same absolutely organic, sparkling, and pure sound of some of the better DSD recordings? What about the musical clarity per se of redbook, in particular when listening to string quartets and the like? Will I get a 'clean' sound in the tonal sense, not overly dark, but a sound that seems right? What about the upper octave of piano?
I once read an article long ago (i believe it was in stereophile) in which the author admitting to prefering cassette tape over vinyl due to it having cleaner and more pitch accurate upper octave reproduction. That was then, this is now. What do you guys think? (last time I'll ask that, I promise!)

Ted
tedd1
With the Sony S9000ES in its stock form, you haven't begun to hear SACD (or even redbook) at its best. Allen Wright mods probably my first recommendation, followed by ModWright (for a different, not necessarily better, approach).

(Note: I haven't sprung to mod mine yet either; putting the $$$ into a NOS Garrard 401 and playing around with plinths, arms, cartridges, etc. Ain't this hobby a blast?)
i've posted similarly before, but not since i've gotten the EMM Labs CDSD in my system:

i used to own a top-flight vinyl rig consisting of one of the upper Teres tables, an SME V arm, and a VdH Colibri cart.

if you haven't heard CD and SACD on a full Meitner setup, you haven't heard what digital is capable of. i'll take my EMM setup over my old vinyl setup any day of the week. it sounds better. even regular CDs best a good deal of vinyl on that machine. when comparing SACD forget it.

a lot of people still prefer vinyl because they are used to the additive properties of it. vinyl errs by addition. digital by subtraction.

in my experience, SACD is absolutely the closest in properly reproducing texture, timbre, and spatial cues.

and what that thing does to CD playback is amazing.
I am with Lazarus28 the capability of top notch or highly modded digital player on both redbook and sacd is simply amazing. Vinyl (IMO) simply can not touch the resolution and dynamics of digital let alone the blackness of the background and with sacd you get all that timbre and realism.

Chuck
I have a Scoutmaster/Sumiko Blackbird, playing into a Musical Fidelity a308 integrated with phono. I listen through JM Labs speakers, but also through a headphone rig consisting of Sony MDR-R10s amped by Earmax Pro Anniv Ed. My digital front end is not Meitner, but I have a modded Sony SCD555ES, and also a Bel Canto PL-1 Universal Player, so I have good digital. You and I are almost identical in musical taste. I am an amateur cellist and chamber music is my favorite, followed closely by other classical and classic jazz (Coltrane, Ellington, Basie, Rollins, etc.). My favorite classical vocalist...Elly Ameling (who else sings bach Cantatas like her?) And the Vegh quartet, lovely... who does Beethoven better?

Don't sweat your decision. You will find those older artists from the 50's through 80's that never will make it to SACD. My forst steal was a $5 copy of the Quartetto Italiano playing Mozart's "Haydn" quartets. Used but plays like mint...and so it goes. Classical albumns are usually well cared for. I've bought several used Amelings (Kaffe Cantata, Wedding Cantata, Jachzut gott in allen landen, all used and almost pristine... for a coupla bucks.

Now soundwise, I do love SACD...no noise and still natural sounding. I haven't yet decided whether the vinyl is absolutely better because I don't yet have that many direct comarisons. For me now, a good SACD is CHEAPER than a reissued "audiophile" pressing. For example Living Stereo SACDs, Mercury Living Presence. I have the SACD vedrsions of Janos Starker's Bach Cello Suites. Do I need a $90 vinyl version? There isn't that much difference I bet. The Miles Davis Kind of Blue SACD sounds terrific. Do I need a vinyl version if it costs 2x or 3x as much. Maybe, just to try it out!

The fun with the vinyl is the tinkering with the setup, getting up every 30 minutes and flipping the side. And its true vinyl wipes CD's butt, but not SACD. Even the true aficionados have to concede that SACD is pretty close. You get to go to garage sales and find incredible collections of good vinyl CHEAP. Its an adventure.

Enjoy the Scoutmaster.
SACD does not cure the digital sound. It may soften it with the Emm labs set up, but vinyl just sounds different. It's a matter of preference rather than rehash the same old arguments, go listen for yourself. By the way you can better the EMM labs for a fraction of the cost with vinyl, and the software will cost $1-2 a peice. And there are 1,000's of classical LP's to choose from.

If digital bettered vinyl, they wouldn't be releasing all these TT's and cartridges because it's a pain in the arsh to play, setup LPs, but we go through the effort because it sounds better.