Tranfiguration Orpheus description

I think this thread (specifically comparisons of the Orpheus to the universe)has gone awry.

From my listening the actual sonic differences between these two cartridges were much smaller than what people are perceiving from the comments made by Doug. I think their use of phrases like "virtually unable" and "flawed" are a little unjustified in absolute terms. These comments should really be taken in context to the Universe, which was properly set up....and has a reputation to uphold (sorry doug, couldn't resist:).

As Doug confessed, we did not have much time to fully optimize the O's settings. After the experiment, I evaluated the sensitivity of the VTA/SRA and found that I could produce bomminess in the bass with HF and LF smearing when the SRA was too low. Increasing the arm height in my system above the levels we used in Doug's resolved this.

This comparison was flawed in several respects all of which Doug and I mentioned above, and as I said before, I'm a little embarassed for perfroming such an experiment which has led to unnecessary controversy. I think you will see positive press on the Orpheus as more and more reviewers get a chance to hear it. People reading this thread should not assume the Orpheus is a poor design or poor performer.

Andrew

Dear Thom: Yes, any cartridge show its nature after 10: it is a shadow but it is part of its nature.

The essential character after 80-100?, yes ( too ).

There are cartridges, like my Colibri, that take a lot more time to really know their " secrets ".

Anyway, in my case I take a little more time because I'm testing the cartridge with different tonearms and this is very time consuming.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul this is a little bit off-thread, but it's my thread, so what the hell?!

But I've been wondering: you try many many tonearm-and-cartridge combinations. So how do you remember from one to another so you can decide what you liked best? Do you make written notes? (I assume yes?) And what do you put in the notes (what qualities do you make notes about?)
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All,

I've received private comments from all over the map regarding my break in comments and should have known better than to bring this topic up in the final days before an audio show.

After the Audiofest I'd be very interested in starting up a new thread - with a "proper" title for archival purposes and quick searches ... something like "What's the average break-in time for a cartridge?"

Apart from a customer's willingness to put up with excessive break-in time, I think a manufacturer is behaving against his best interests by releasing a product with such extreme usage requirements.

That an otherwise fine cartridge like a Van denHul requires numerous trips across the ocean for "checkups" until it reaches adolescence is something that I find intolerable. Others may differ. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choices. If you are so smitten by its virtues, be my guest and pay the freight.

The problem with such products is that there are very few people who are dedicated enough to pursue this on an ongoing basis and this hurts the manufacturer in several ways:

(1) many people will give up on the product "prematurely" and it will get a bad name
(2) extreme enthusiasts may pursue what is necessary, but they will be viewed from afar like cult members who drank the Kool-Aid.

This latter point begins by hurting the manufacturer, but ultimately hurts the consumer because the industry as a whole becomes marginalized even more than it currently is . As fewer people are drawn into it, the industry contracts and there are fewer choices for the enthusiast. A vicious cycle perpetuates itself.

Lynn Olson and I were discussing active amplification. Lynn commented that this is the last step you take before you quit audio. Once you pass through that door, you seldom return. I've known several such audio burnouts who checked out of audio after such extreme behavior. Their last step before exiting? Tri-amped systems with active crossovers.

I received a pair of speakers last year which had a claimed break-in time of 400 hours - not for a complete break-in mind you, but merely to wipe the sleep from their eyes. Well, I faithfully found a spot to run them in - 24x7 for some two and a half weeks.

How many customers do we really think will do this before casting "premature" judgment on a product. I don't consider this to be premature, and hence the quotes around the word. To me, such a characteristic is a fatal flaw in a commercial product. Black Gate capacitors? Keep them too. It's in the manufacturer's own best interest to release a product that the customer can experience before they grow old and die.

If you purchased a Porsche, would you expect to have to wait 20,000 miles before you could enjoy it?

As much as I love leading edge audio, one has to have just a faint bit of practicality about it. At some point, we want to kick back and listen to tunes - n'est ce pas?

Regarding this tracking of an XV-1s at 2.5 grams ... please, please ... return to your setup parameters and don't bury your errors in excessive tracking force.

The XV-1s is an absolutely wonderful cartridge (on a Triplanar) at 1.87 to 1.89 grams. I'll give ya another .1 gram out of the kindness of my heart ... allowing for sample to sample consistency but at the same time having set up 4 samples which fall within a very tight cluster of .03 grams. .

Those of you who are coming to the Audiofest are invited to hear an XV-1s tracking at 1.87 grams. Tell me it isn't the best tracking MC you've ever heard. Maybe I'm not giving my turntables enough credit for this? Dunno ... The Universe for the record will track in the 1.93 ballpark.

Until after the 'Fest.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

Thom, I don't think anything is gained by taking an extreme opposite position just to make a point. Some examples you cite, the 400 hour speaker or the 20,000 mile Porsche break-in, the NUMEROUS? van den Hul trips across the ocean ;--); these are erroneous statements and suggest ridiculous extremes that will make even obsessive audiophiles giggle.

There are many areas in life that, finally, must be approached subjectively. There are many people who explain things they COULD understand with a little effort, but who prefer superstition -- that's why so many rabbits have only three feet! There are firm scientific underpinnings for many of the routine conventions that people follow in audio, particularly in vinyl analog setup an playback. Other procedures unfortunately are the result of taste, superstition, or one time anecdotal experience.

Unfortunately, separating the "lore" from the science is not easy, especially for the newcomers to audio, exposed as they are to ads, salesmen, reviewers, and worst of ALL, other audiophiles! who seem to speak with authority and experience, but who in fact are merely repeating unsubstantiated "lore." I'm not referring here to you, as I don't know you that well.

I think in the area of audio setup/adjustment, break-in, etc., it's a matter of scientifically measuring/determining exactly how much is required to do the job, AND WHY!! -- and then using procedures that are repeatable, and which provide useful results under a broad range of circumstances, conditions and equipment. To me, other approachs (other than that FINAL ear tweak, if one has the chops!) are subjective, even romantic, and therefore, ultimately impractical.

As for the "average break-in time for a cartridge" -- I don't understand what a statement like that refers to? Certainly not to all the different cartridges out there in the world! I think what most of us would agre about, and what was mentioned in previous posts, is a general consensus about what the range is at this moment in time, and also what happens during the process.

And the concensus is: somewhere between 80 and 100 hours with today's suspension materials. This concensus comes from many many pairs of ears. Some experiencing only one cartridge break-in period, others like Raul, experiencing dozens of different cartridges breaking in. And I'm sure any scientist with experience in elastomeric technology would have no trouble explaining these empirical results. I think cartridge manufacturers downplay the break-in time for the very (marketing) reasons you mention. And that's OK. I mean, it's baloney, but it's OK, because if you use your cartridge for an average hour and a half a day for a couple of months, it's gonna break-in, isn't it? And if your hearing is sensitive and/or trained, you will enjoy experiencing the metamorphosis.

Some folks open a bottle of fine wine and pour. Others like myself, know one should let it rest first, but like me, don't know how long or why. I should probably ask soneone what the concensus is (for how long) and later on, if I really get into it, I'll ask why, so I can make a more refined determination.
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