Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Mario, you've done good work here, both in bringing the original thread back to life and in helping to keep it going. This should not be a thankless task. THANK YOU! Dave

Yo, lenco fools!
Added a Dynavector 17D III per Jean's recommendation. Wish I could say something negative (just for fun), but- the man from the great north is right again!!!
Excellent results- beautiful, moving, engaging MUSIC.
Thanks for keeping it positive Mario, David and Mr. JN!

This thread has been/is a 6 year party at John's place. Folks join in and enjoy the atmosphere and rapport, most read, some post. This thread is damn good fun! Like it or not, JN does that!

I think slate is a good plinth material, but I don't see it getting into a deck that's supposed to be 'cheap' and 'diy'. I hope I'm wrong, c'mon Harvey!

Over the past month anything to do with slate has been a downer here and elsewhere. Maybe if it stood on it's own two feet instead of trying to gatecrash other folks parties it would get on better, who knows?

2c

Mario, I do appreciate your efforts, too, and I most of all appreciate Dave Pogue who was kind enough to invite me to his home last year to listen to a JN-built Lenco. I've got my own now, and I'm happy as a clam. But I also do not think that you need to police this site for posters who might either mildly criticize Jean or offer further innovations in design. I don't go along with anyone's trash talking, but I am saying that this forum should be open to new ideas. After all, we got to where we are now by listening to Jean and giving his ideas a try. Further, it seems that Jean himself is not the least bit insulted or put off by the idea that slate might be a good substance for plinth-building, so why should we? The only criterion for an acceptable post should be its civility. One could debate whether or not a few (certainly not all) of Mosin's posts cross that boundary. I think he is just a very enthusiastic, analytical, and energetic person who has lots of thoughts on turntable design and has taken great pains to implement some of them. We all may benefit from his work, too. Carry on.

Thanks for the positive vibes, those who are positive, and thanks again to Mario for, first of all bringing back Da Thread (as it was known back in the days when it was the longest in audio history), and secondly for trying to keep Da Spirit alive!!

Now I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to battles and some people find this offensive, and many find this offensive for the precise reason I do it: it works. They would rather I carry on quietly in relative obscurity and leave their various prejudices and illusions alone, a common human desire: the world is stable, everything can be counted on to have been done right, let's leave it to the experts. Unfortunately the experts are often wrong, because they do not themselves investigate the assumptions on which their conclusions and context rest. So with the idler-wheel drive system (considered bad), so with the belt-drive system (considered good). When I started the original thread, the experts started from an assumption that the belt-drive system was inherently superior (and most designers still start from this as a fundamental and unquestionable assumption), and from this platform came up with various answers to various problems. Now we have reached a point where $100K belt-drives are increasingly common (along with billionaires).

The very posting of the original - and this - thread was and is a declaration of war of sorts, since its purpose is to challenge the Status Quo, and to stimulate debate, in the Public Eye, as well as having fun and experimenting, and the resulting discussions. Many would like to see this thread disappear (and indeed it did at one point, but Mario wouldn't let it be ;-)), and the participants, likely especially me ;-), relegate themselves to quiet obscurity on dedicated forums.

In the original thread, when the first offspring, Lenco Heaven, and later with its spin-off Lenco Lovers, sprang, I warned participants that if everyone amscrayed willy-nilly to that thread, then the belt-drivers will have won, as the whole Lenco/Idler phenomenon, now safely out of the public eye, would become nothing more than an interesting eccentricity/hobby to most, like AR 'table fans, or Thorens fans (both being belt-drive designs as well and so "safe" and harmless). If now there truly is an idler-wheel and indeed drive system revolution (DD as well is now being taken seriously once again) going on in audio, with its attendant serioius discussion of PRaT and musicality, it's because of threads in general public forums liike Audiogon and Vinyl Asylum. In turn these public forums are the prime recruiting ground for the specialized websites such as Lenco Lovers and other audio discusion websites. Would Teres and VPI curently be marketing forms of the idler-wheel drive if this thread and others weren't out there challenging the Status Quo in the Public Eye, where it counts? Not likely, as I don't see respected belt-drive designers signing up for Lenco Lovers without the public exposure/grass-roots movement afforded by Audiogon and Vinyl Asylum and others.

It may be taxing to have to get involved in dust-ups in public forums, but it's also exciting and rewarding! All those who have participated on both the original and current thread and other similar threads in other general-exposure forums, pat yourselves on the back, the industry is changing, and the Idler Movement irresistably gaining ground! Ahhhh, doesn't it feel grand to affect audio history? Of course, the specialized forums also have their place and influence, and participants there quietly in the background get friends and relatives involved, and there's a big cycling of influences which makes itself felt, as some of thsoe participants go on to post and add their weight in the more public/generalized forums. What I'm saying is that public/general forums like these are the Engine of Change. I thank all those who dared listen to me in the beginning and report in their various - universally positive - experiences, the whole reason Lenco today just won't go away :-).

Now getting to those who have repeatedly tried to jam a stick in the wheels of the JN/Lenco/Idler phenomenon (I'm not saying Major Phenomenon, just a phenomenon) have done so not out of objective and logical reasoning and experience, but out of a desire for recognition, and, it needs to be said, envy at my success in achieving a measure of recognition, which has so far escaped them. When I started my activities, I did so out of a desire to expose an injustice - the death of the idler-wheel drive system as a serious drive system - and a desire to positively affect the development of analogue history. I had no desire for "fame" (such as it is), and was frankly surprised that my second attempt to get this particular Idler-Wheel rolling succeeded. The first clumsy and unsophisticated attempt was a resounding flop - FLOP! - and so I devised a sneaky way by advertising (not bogus however) high-end 'tables cheap. I remember chuckling as I posted the outrageous title, tweaking the noses of the Status-oriented audiophiles. However, the appeal of the advertised intent - building true high-end 'tables cheap - worked, and I eventually admitted that it was a ploy to get the idler-wheel drive system taken seriously via the cheap but excellent Lenco 'tables.

Which is to say, this is all an accident of history, no one else stepped forward to make the PUBLIC point to say A) the Lenco was not the worst tunrtable in the world but in fact one of the best (now it turns out possibly the best, currently) and B) the idler-wheel drive system had been and was the superior drive system for vinyl playback, and the belt-drive the worst. That, my friends, is thinking out of the box, if we're to talk about that. Now, I may eventually be proven wrong on these points (but it certainly looks like I'm being vindicated), but given their outrageousness at the time, and the success of my appeal to the grass roots/DIY movement, I've achieved a measure of recognition. Get over it, it was never my intention to offend (and it was inevitable that some would be offended given the inherent controversiality of the subject, that the experts had been wrong for 40 years) either those who disagreed or those who sought recognition. My only aim all along, and still, is to positively affect the audio industry/audio experience and bring truth/justice (as I see it anyway: the idler-wheel drive systym is incredible) to light.

Those who've followed my writings over the years know that I don't offend people personally on a whim, I do it inadvertently, or in response to attacks posted here or elsewhere (in other forums). Often those who attack me are outraged that I defend myself or respond in kind, to these types this is the ultimate inexcusable act, and it earns their undying enmity (we are supposed to simply take our lumps). Often, I see those whose agenda is simply to try to hurt me by either personal attacks, or by attacking my conclusions or reputation. And so they try to restrict my activities to just the Lenco (which I have always made clear was simply a way of bringing the idler-wheel system to the fore), and tell everyone all I did was to discover the Lenco, nothing else. They try to hijack the thread in various ways and claim what isn't theirs to claim. They report falsely on their results (or are simply incapable of reaching the same results I do), for instance one fellow who goes on record to say that the Nottingham Hyperspace is the equal of the Lenco (thus undermining my claim for Idler Superiority and limiting the Lenco's appeal to potential newbies), while a Lenco I sent out quite simply outperforms the Hyperspace in every area, and higher models too. Another writes and tells everyone generally that the Lenco motor is mediocre at best, and needs to be replaced, thus undermining the Lenco's appeal to newbies, and damaging the Lenco reputation generally (thus seeking to unermine me personally and pull the rug out from under me), despite repeated posted results of Lencos outperforming everything thrown against thus far (so how bad can the Lenco motor - actually proven to be superb in actual comparisons - be?). These attempts negatively affect the positive momentum of the movement, and for no good reason, being purely destructive. I recognize these attempts, but rather than recognize their authors (I recognize their motives), I respond to the charges. I leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions, but often they simply don't see it.

I've gotten as much as I gave in starting my little Idler War, as participation in the debate thus started and rolling thanks to the participants, I was forced to step-by-step improve the design/maximize the Lenco potential, both in response to the critics and due to reported experiments. I was perfectly happy with my early smaller Lencos largely unmodified, but have now reached unbelievable sonic heights due to the stimulus by the other participants. Thank you all!

But I'm still at the root of it interested in the simple/elegant answers, and by Common Sense. Look at the fundamentals, use your heads. This means this: whatever the properties of slate, it is stone. Hit a metal plate with stone, and you have effectively created a bell. Now perhaps slate really does have properties that more than compensates for this simple fact, and I'll find out and report on it thanks to Harvey. The other aspect of this particular debate with respect common sense and slate: I am not going to begin to compare 150 different types of slate to find the one that does, indeed, perform as advertised, I believe that slate can be generalized by a decent example from anywhere in the world. Whatever the case, I leave it to someone else to find various examples and report on their findings (honest findings), I'll try the BC variety and rely on that for now. Given the incredible results of birch-ply/MDF, which is being cast aside unfairly (it has beaten what was considered unbeatable), there's no need for so much trouble.

As to birch-ply/MDF, in the early days of Da Thread I was on record saying that it didn't really matter what the plinth was made out of, as results should be similar. So my early plinths were made of various combinations, including MDF/Corian, birch-ply/pine-ply, birch-ply plasterboard/chipboard, and so on. But when I finally heard the birch-ply/MDF recipe which I had been recommending (on the grouns of simple mass/weight and strength), I really did hear something special and extra: more dynamics, deeper and more powerful bass, higher highs, and a more powerful musical presentation. I parked my ass there, there are ways to continually improve this simple buit extremely effective recipe (i.e. ensure there are no stresses, clamping techniques, design and construction. etc.).

Anyway, that's more than enough for now, thanks all for your continued support, and don't be shy, participate in this envigorating activity and watch and see what further Idler Developments and drive system developments/philosophies there may be!! Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!