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Reference level playback

Hello to all, I have a theory to present that I feel is never fully addressed, it is in regard to the volume level that we listen at. This is in respect to vinyl only as I have no experience with CDs, I do not own a CD player and the one in my car is broken! That and the fact that I own about 10 CDs makes it impossible to have any regarded opinion in this matter.
I have seen in the past postings regarding listening levels, such as overall playback levels and playback levels for individual LPs. The two being distinguishable but not inseperatable. Recently someone said that it is a life time endeavor to find the correct playback levels as it changes from system to system, room to room and LP to LP. Also it has been posted that even crossover levels (and settings) should be used as freely as volume control settings. I disagree.
My experience has show that systems should be set at a reference level of 83db @ 1000hz and all LPs should be played back at this reference level. Set It and Forget It, is my motto.

I listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting. I let the music and the engineer/producer/pressing dictate the playback level, and screw things up as they see fit! If you do not change the gain setting then you hear exactly what is on the record for evey record every time. I never change the volume control setting, it is set at 83db at 1000hz (plus or minus due to variations in my settings, room and references which does perhaps give you some leeway in any system, and may even be necessary). Some quiet non-bass heavy music plays at around mid 80s. Good rock plays at around the high 80s to low 90s. Music with big bass levels (orchestral and loud rock) plays around low to mid 90s with peaks to 100+. Emerson Lake and Palmers song Lucky Man hits 112db. Of course every record is completely different and that's the thrill and the reason. This is without changing the volume control setting. Want to listen to "quiet" music, put on some quiet music which was recorded appropriatly. Want some big bass Orb, well, it should play loudly. Want to hear the Monkees on Colegems, listen to it in your car.
I also do this for a number of other reasons:
1) All recordings now have the same vinyl recorded background noise, pops and clicks, noisy or quiet vinyl etc.. You hear each recording, pressing and condition of the LP for what it is. Turning down the volume on a noisy record does not make the record more quiet. Turning down the volume on a recording that was recorded too loudly does not help the sonics of this LP. Turning up the volume does not make a record more dynamic and it can only add more noise.
2) Bass levels are maintained through the Fletcher-Munson curve. Using the volume control has a huge effect on this. It makes it more difficult to balance bass levels when you are altering the Fletcher Munson curve. It is impossible to intergrate a sub when freq perception is changing due to overall gain settings for every recording or when listening at different levels according to your mood.
3) All recording engineers and producers have the same amount of dynamics available to themselves, did they make a dynamic, correct volume recording for the music that is recorded? I.e.: did they record an appropriately quiet section or style of music at an appropriate volume or did they compress the hell out of it and make a string quartet the same volume as a rock band? Its up to them to get this correct, not me. Lowering the volume does not help this LP. Is an Lp recorded too quietly and you want to hear it "rock out"? Increasing the volume does not help this if dynamics and overall gain is missing, plus "turning it up increases the noise levels in your system, and noises such as rumble and transient noise. This does not help this LP. How can you say record 1 is a good, quiet recording when played back at a lower gain setting comparing it to either itself or record 2 when played at a much higher setting? Did the pressing use good quiet vinyl? Is the pressing free of rumble and distortion? Changing gain setting dose not help any defiencies, they do not go away because you changed the volume level. Lets face it there are a lot of poor recordings, don't we really want to know which are good and which are bad? This is the way to find them.
4) If you "limit" yourself to one gain setting you will find that it is easier to set crossover settings, speaker placement and sub to main settings. You do this by getting the most out of your settings, not by pumping up or decreasing as is seen fit for that recording. again this shows the recording for what it is.
5) All records are played repeatadly at the same level so they always sound the same. From individual records played at different levels which would mess with the F-M curve and room interactions to all LPs which give some a more quiet background if played at a lower level to others where they become noisy cranked to 10!
6) Its an easily obtainable goal, who can't play at 83db at 1000hz? Therefore all of the other freq will be the same, you then only need your subs to be able to play 50hz and 20hz at 83db. Dont forget the required 20db dynamics! Why buy oversized amps and more gain than you need when all you are trying to do is get 83db at all freq?
7) We would all be listening at this level to make it easier to asses each others system at the same volume level.
8) This is the level that a good recording engineer should strive for. It gives him a natural level 83db with the ability to utilise 20db+ dynamics.
9) You only have to buy the size amp you need.
10) You only need things to be so quiet, is your system quiet at this level? Who cares if it is noisy turned up to 10, you are not listening there anyway.
11) If listening to an LP and the turntable has resonances or rumble or the amp has a low freq aberration changing the reference playback level will alter this underlying feel, sound, noise and this can not be correct-to evaluate at diff levels. This also pertains to number 1, regarding LP noise levels, whether condition or anomalies such as LP recorded hum or vinyl rumble.

In summary there are two main reasons for this and the others come along for the ride. For your system, you only have to obtain a "flat" freq response from 20-20K @ 83db plus the ability for dynamics, a not so easily obtainable goal as it may first appear but at least a direction to go. This does not mean there is there is no "fiddling to be done". If your system is not capable of this setting tune your system to a more easily obtainable level such as 80db or 77db or less and get as full range as possible within your systems capability.
Secondly no record has an advantage due to increased or decreased volume setting, you hear the record for what it is, which is one of my main goals in listening.
I am not the only one to address this issue as you can research this on the net. I feel that that this is an important issue which is rarely ever discussed.
Bob
acoustat6
wgh
6 posts
 
Acoustat6 - I will have to buy a test record so I can try out your method. My neighbor always plays his music too loud, if Scissorfighter is correct, then it's payback time!

Still curious if you have Stereophile Intermezzo album. Not many of my records have a recommended dB maximum, this may be the only one.

There are a few ways to listen to music, for enjoyment (party on dude!), seduction (Barry White anyone?), recreating the artists inspiration and intent with an illusion of the original performance, and system integration. I think it would be safe to say everyone here prefers one of the first three, and you prefer the latter.
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Inpepinnovations, I am sorry you "did not get it" (the inside joke) it was in reference to "Dr." Mechans remarks to me in several of his posting in this thread. I hope no offense was taken and I am in no way trying to diagnose you or insult you as "Dr." Mechan has insulted me.
That being said your idea has merit.
Bob
inpepinnovations
134 posts
 
Acoustat6, of course my idea has merit, otherwise I wouldn't do it! All said with 'tongue firmly planted in cheek', of course.
Salut, Bob P.
stilljd
159 posts
 
Acoustat6, I partially agree with your premise, but I think you have taken the principle too far.

Certainly, the best way to get the flavor and texture of a musical piece or set of pieces on an album is to listen at a fixed volume. Many above have gone as far as taking the steps to fix starting volumes for each record to match their room and system synergies. BTW - evidently at much higher levels than I listen.

But, I think there is way too much variation in minimum, average, and peak recording levels from record to record to leave the volume at a reference setting. I think most listeners intuitively (and some mechanically) adjust to a baseline average level that meets their expectation for best playback results (acoustics, synergy, etc.) but, allows them to experience the dynamics on the individual recordings.

Jim S.
vincentkkho
53 posts
 
Just fall back on fundamental. Everything has got its own fundamental. The sad thing about sound reproduction is that it is never easy to be comprehened as what you can have for photography. But, to me, they always share a lot of similarities, I mean to the extent of reproduction of what have been captured beforehand. I do not challenge into the technicality of the gears as I am not a designer for any electrical or photographic equipment.

For photography, there is always the concept of format. There are different formats of negative that one uses for taking picture. The common ones is 35mm negative. But for most professional photographer, they will go for bigger formats such as 645 or 120. Why? The reason is they need to blow up the picture. For smaller format, it is well known for the fact that there is a limitation in the amount of light energy that can be captured with a smaller lens design together with a smaller and compact area available, the blown up picture (many times of the size of the negative)will not be perfect in reproducing the object which is captured under such condition. The technical terms concerning the reproduction are chromatical correction, aberration etc.. A set of well defined terminology has also been set up such as resolution, curvature of field, depth of field, tonal balance, colour saturation, contrast etc. All these words would allow one to discuss properly the subject we are aiming for. So it is also well known that though 35mm is not a perfect format but it is so widely used by all consumers in the world. The simple reason is that most of us will not need to magnify the photo and the development of the negative into 3R or 4R size of photo is good enough for our collection. With reputable company such as Leica, you can hardly spot any major flaw in the picture you have taken and you may even think that the picture quality is on par with those picture taken with larger format camera under a non-blown-up situation. Now for sound reproduction, there isn't clear to correlate the sound energy with the size and the type of accoustic of the room that sound reproduction is needed.

Another point to be taken note as in photo. The contrast and resolution and the lens design will cause different results in micro and macro details of the picture. It is apparent when you start to compare lenses produced by those Japanese and with that by Leica. The colour tone and the saturation of the photo and even the three dimensional effect from Leica will smoke it. So when one discuss sound reproduction on micro details, you have to becareful not just to focus in one subject but to remember all the sounds reproduced and heard are inter-related. This is what I call the energy distribution for each frequency throughout the whole sound spectrum of the reproduction must be able to reproduce those which was recorded and captured in the first place. If it is not the case, than I believe the reproduction will be so called dull or dark, yin or yang, terms which the reviewers have got the likes to use.

Overall it is still the acoustic and the size of the room versus the combination of the equipment you put together. And not to have the merry go round situation in looking and hunting for details as it is just part of the whole sound spectrum in the reproduction chain.
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