MM to MC back to MM

Eldartford - I know of several phonostages that have a MM stage that is completely separate from the MC stage in a single chassis.

As to the other approaches you suggest, the additional booster stage or the manner in which the gain is changed concerns me.

Regardless of the approach, the inherent sonic differences between a MM or MC phonostage (even if these are independent from one another within the same unit) are not easily determined.

Here is a long shot: Just thinking out loud here so pardon the lack of clarity... I suppose two sets of a few musical passages and test tones can be recorded on (heaven forbid) a CD. The volume differences from one set to another must be set appropriately to avoid overloading the respective stage for which they are meant to be used. This can then serve as the input to a phonostage. I know of burn-in CD that have appropriate output levels that allow you to feed line level output directly to the phonostage.

I realize that one can argue that this may also not be a one-to-one comparison. This may be the case, but if the volume differences are well executed on such a CD to achieve identical musical passages when played back though the system, this may be an acceptable (but definitely unconventional) way to determine the sonic differences of a MM vs. MC stage without using a cartridge. This could be as close as we can get to determining the sonic differences between the two stages (so long as the overall volume levels are the equalized when switching from one stage to another).

If after such an exercise you determine that your MM and MC stage have similar performance, then you can confidently interpret the results of a MM vs. MC comparison. So does such a test CD exist?

Regards,

Rauliruegas - I saw your last post before it was deleted. Let’s try and discuss this topic without presenting something that can be interpreted as crossing over the controversial "advertisement" line. I think we can do it, yes?

I admire all attempts a manufacturer takes in making sure the component is made with the very best parts with much attention toward quality construction and design. Your focus on important specifications like RIAA accuracy, frequency range, signal to noise ratio, distortion level, crosstalk, slew rate, etc., along with well defined goals for sound reproduction are great.

However, even within this context, completely separate MM and MC stages within a single chassis with identical specs do not necessarily yield the same performance. This is the case for nearly identical circuits with only slight differences by way of additional booster stage or via a gain control. It is even more of a challenge for a preamp like yours when completely different parts are used. Specs alone (identical or not) do not predict the sonic signature of a component.

It would be interesting to know how you determined the sonic characteristics of the MM stage is identical to the MC stage without using different cartridges or, more generally, without adding a new variable.

Respectfully,

I have been interested in doing this kind of MM/MC comparison myself.There is one point I'd like to make in that using different loadings especially with MC's it is easy to alter the sound of the performance on a record.I also found that in using the Denon at 100 ohms for example, it was more true to the actual sound in the real world,and that is probably why this was the manufacturer's recommended setting.I take this approach and look for the real world sound rather than a "sweetened" one.The Denon at 220 ohms for example is quite nice sounding but I moved back to 100 ohms.I used the Denon in several stages at 100 ohms.The stage I am using now is not the same as before as I have now made a system change.I found that,as I said in the earlier post,that Ortofon sold a little capacitor clip-on for the VMS 20.You can use it with or without depending.I am using an English Moth stage made by Stan Curtis with 45 Kohm and 300pf for the MM section.So here is the Ortofon running in a most suitable environment.I heard the Denon through maybe 8 different stages at 100 ohms,the Ortofon and Denon in the same stage.I know I was able to get a grasp of the nature of both cartridges.I think the Ortofon succeeded where at the last hurdle the Denon faltered.The Ortofon can play a record.

and back to MC! My saga began with(foolishly) "upgrading" from an A&R Cambridge P78(although I think it was the destruction of a 2nd Beryllium cantilever that...) to a Linn ASAK So I'd have THE then RIG:LP12/ITTOK/ASAK the rags were raving about back then. As soon as I switched to a moving coil I stopped enjoying music and my audiophilia began...I kept feeling something was wrong without being able to articulate precisely what. I changed preamps, power amps, speakers...ICGO&O...switch to the States
and reduced circumstances; LP12 gone and cheapo NAD deck with HO Sumiko MC. Same thing! Stylus gave out, short of funds, substitute the SRC cheapo Grado, reduced expectations...SWIZZ! Just enjoying music once more and audiophilia outbreak contained! got a Systemdek IIX and have upgraded steadily since to where the hankering for my old RIG is assuaged. But in buying a LVX arm I came by a REGA Elys; swapped to an RB300 and put in the Elys with the 3rd Screw...BINGO! Superb, glorious music, better than before. Circumstances improved and further outbreak of audiophilia!
After a year performance fell off and I lashed out on a 10x5. Whilst there was superiority of Stereo imaging and Bass output, the treble sweetness of the Elys was gone...found an almost brand new Elys2 in UK for $120. DIFFERENT! Where is everything...50-60 hours later...ah, now I see. Then got a chance for a DL-160 at a killer price and lashed out again.
The same strengths as both the Elys & 10x5 plus a captivatingly forward presentation and spectacular stereo imaging that puts the others to shame. A better match than either, with the RB300(Stock) to my ears. Knowing that a retip amounts to to a mere $90 is another bonus. so for the nonce at least...it's MC!

I’m currently using a low output (.4mv) MC – Shelter 501, through a Black Cube into a line input on my preamp (Mac C2200). The preamp has a phono section, but it is designed for MM. I’ve been hoping to try a direct connection to the preamp, but I understand I need a higher output MM or MI to do it.

I’ve read the above about strict comparisons between MC and MM. In that vein, keeping components, cables, etc the same shouldn’t be too difficult. Matching phono preamp sections – this seems to be where the difficulty arises, due to the differing nature of MC and MM cartridges. My question is – at the risk of becoming a human dartboard – ultimately, does it really matter? OK, from an academic point of view it would be nice to be able to pinpoint the plus and minus aspects of MC vs MM, but many/most of us don’t have the resources to set up a system to precisely determine the relative sonic differences of MC cart A vs MM cart B. But within the context of our own systems, which is what we live with every day, isn’t the bottom line - what sounds good? If, for example, in my case, I buy an MM cart, I understand that any differences I hear will be partially attributable to the cart and partially to the phono section of the preamp.

With that said, I still think makes sense to consider an MM or MI that others have found to be effective in their systems. Several have been mentioned above, including the Shure V15 mr, Ortofon VMS-20 E Mk II, AT 440 ML and Linn K 18 Mk II MM.

Ctm_cra, you mentioned a handful of MM’s that have worked for you. Would you be willing to share that list?