MM to MC back to MM

Stefanl - I was referring to the voltage outputs of each cartridge @ 1Khz, 50 mm/sec. From the informative database, the Denon DL103 is a MC unit whose output ranges from 0.12 - 0.3 mV vs. 5.0 mV for the moving iron Ortofon VMS-20 E Mk II.

I originally thought your phonostage is one that is either a MM or a MC. I see now that the phonostage you are using has a MM and a MC section. Thanks for clarifying. So essentially the capabilities of your phonostage is the same as that for Eldartford and others whose phonostages have a MM and MC settings. One of my phonostages also has this capability.

What is your phonostage? It would be interesting to know the design of its MM and the MC sections. I also want to know to what extent you have investigated that the performance of both sections is identical so that neither the MM nor the MC stages introduce an effect that confounds the MM vs. MC comparison. In other words, how do you know that the differences you hear when comparing MM and MC cartridges are only due to the distinct sonic signature of each cartridge? In my original post and in my responses to Eldartford I listed some of the difficulties one runs into when trying to objectively interpret the results of a MM vs. a MC cartridge comparison.

I would jump at the chance to AB MM/MC cartridges the way we can with cables and PCs, for example, with all other components being equal. In such evaluations only one variable changes -- the unit being investigated -- for a true apples-to-apples comparison. For other components like CD players, for example, it can also be done. However, it is not as simple because of the need to be sure that the volume levels are the same for each unit.

It would be great to hear from the designers.

Respectfully,

Ctm_cra...For clarification...the Tandberg preamp has two complete phono preamps built in. I don't think this is common, although there may be others. One approach is the have an additional booster stage that the MC goes through before the MM circuit, or the gain of the phono circuit can be changed by switch setting.

Eldartford - I know of several phonostages that have a MM stage that is completely separate from the MC stage in a single chassis.

As to the other approaches you suggest, the additional booster stage or the manner in which the gain is changed concerns me.

Regardless of the approach, the inherent sonic differences between a MM or MC phonostage (even if these are independent from one another within the same unit) are not easily determined.

Here is a long shot: Just thinking out loud here so pardon the lack of clarity... I suppose two sets of a few musical passages and test tones can be recorded on (heaven forbid) a CD. The volume differences from one set to another must be set appropriately to avoid overloading the respective stage for which they are meant to be used. This can then serve as the input to a phonostage. I know of burn-in CD that have appropriate output levels that allow you to feed line level output directly to the phonostage.

I realize that one can argue that this may also not be a one-to-one comparison. This may be the case, but if the volume differences are well executed on such a CD to achieve identical musical passages when played back though the system, this may be an acceptable (but definitely unconventional) way to determine the sonic differences of a MM vs. MC stage without using a cartridge. This could be as close as we can get to determining the sonic differences between the two stages (so long as the overall volume levels are the equalized when switching from one stage to another).

If after such an exercise you determine that your MM and MC stage have similar performance, then you can confidently interpret the results of a MM vs. MC comparison. So does such a test CD exist?

Regards,

Rauliruegas - I saw your last post before it was deleted. Let’s try and discuss this topic without presenting something that can be interpreted as crossing over the controversial "advertisement" line. I think we can do it, yes?

I admire all attempts a manufacturer takes in making sure the component is made with the very best parts with much attention toward quality construction and design. Your focus on important specifications like RIAA accuracy, frequency range, signal to noise ratio, distortion level, crosstalk, slew rate, etc., along with well defined goals for sound reproduction are great.

However, even within this context, completely separate MM and MC stages within a single chassis with identical specs do not necessarily yield the same performance. This is the case for nearly identical circuits with only slight differences by way of additional booster stage or via a gain control. It is even more of a challenge for a preamp like yours when completely different parts are used. Specs alone (identical or not) do not predict the sonic signature of a component.

It would be interesting to know how you determined the sonic characteristics of the MM stage is identical to the MC stage without using different cartridges or, more generally, without adding a new variable.

Respectfully,

I have been interested in doing this kind of MM/MC comparison myself.There is one point I'd like to make in that using different loadings especially with MC's it is easy to alter the sound of the performance on a record.I also found that in using the Denon at 100 ohms for example, it was more true to the actual sound in the real world,and that is probably why this was the manufacturer's recommended setting.I take this approach and look for the real world sound rather than a "sweetened" one.The Denon at 220 ohms for example is quite nice sounding but I moved back to 100 ohms.I used the Denon in several stages at 100 ohms.The stage I am using now is not the same as before as I have now made a system change.I found that,as I said in the earlier post,that Ortofon sold a little capacitor clip-on for the VMS 20.You can use it with or without depending.I am using an English Moth stage made by Stan Curtis with 45 Kohm and 300pf for the MM section.So here is the Ortofon running in a most suitable environment.I heard the Denon through maybe 8 different stages at 100 ohms,the Ortofon and Denon in the same stage.I know I was able to get a grasp of the nature of both cartridges.I think the Ortofon succeeded where at the last hurdle the Denon faltered.The Ortofon can play a record.