Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

Compliance is the resistance to deflection from the centered resting position, or stiffness, of the cantilever which is the tiny "arm" that the stylus itself is attached to. The cantilever hinges on a donut of rubber and has the magnet or coil assembly attached to the internal end. It is the movement of this assembly in relation to the fixed coils or magnets that generates the signal. In the case of a MM or moving magnet cartridge, a small magnet is attached to the end of the cantilever and the coils are fixed in the body of the cartridge, thus the name, moving magnet. Moving magnet type cartridges usually are more compliant, or more flexible, in the neighborhood of 15-30, to make up for the higher mass of the magnets. Moving coil cartridges typically are less compliant, or stiffer, 5-15, to stabilize the lower mass of the coils. The relationship of arm mass to cartridge compliance involves balancing the effective mass of the arm with the cartridge weight and compliance such that the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge system is lower than the lowest musical information but higher than the frequency where foot falls and record warps factor in. That frequency range is from 8-12 hz. In order to ensure an appropriate resonant frequency, the effective arm mass, typically between 6 and 18 grams, plus the cartridge weight, typically between 4 and 13 grams, plus the weight of the mounting hardware, about 1/2 gram, multiplied by the compliance, needs to be between 174 and 400. I'm not sure what the effective mass of the Grace 707 is but is definitely on the very low end. I'm guessing the resonant frequency of the Grace/Denon combo would be about 20hz, not good.

I don't follow your comment about the weight of the Shure and the position of the counter weight. The Shure at 6 grams is on the light side of average. This would put your counter weight closer to the pivot, not further out. Have you mounted the cartridge properly and is your arm intact and put together correctly? How are you measuring the tracking force?

In simple terms regarding compliance, low compliance (stiff suspension) cartridges like the Denon should normally be matched with high mass (heavier) arms. Conversely, high compliance (springy suspension) cartridges should be matched with low mass (lighter) arms. Fortunately, medium matches with medium.

I'm sorry if later posts sounded inconsistent with my first advice but I did not originally realize you would be using the 707. For that reason, I changed direction on you. Don't worry, we all have a learning curve.

But I am bothered by your statement that you're trying to adjust VTF (vertical tracking force) at 6 grams and your counterweight is far back on it's stub. First off, 6 grams is very heavy - a typical range would be 1.0 to 2.0 g., or 2.5 at most, with modern cartridges. Second, moving your counterweight toward the back will lighten the tracking force (remember childhood experience on a teeter-totter). I believe something is drastically wrong from your description. I suggest before asking any more questions you research cartridge set up on the A'gon, Vinyl Asylum, and Vinyl Engine. Again, good luck.

I was assuming you the 6 grams was referring to the weight of the cartridge, not the VTF. Is that correct?

In case you are confused, VTF for the Shure M97xE should be set for 1.25 grams. Cartridge weight is 6.6 grams.

Right, sorry if that wasn't clear. As stated by Pryso, the M97xe weighs about 6 grams, with effective tracking force recommended (in the package anyway) at 1.25 - 2.0g with the brush down. I'd been running it a little heavy at about 2.75g with the brush down. I've borrowed a scale from a fellow A-Goner a couple of times to test this, as well as a setup disk for proper angle. I did the VTA visually. The problem I have with the counterweight is that in order to get the tracking force down below 2g as recommended, I have to really turn the counterweight out pretty far to the point where its hitting the cover when the needle hits the dead wax. This is why I've been running it heavy. This does seem odd though, as I don't think I've ever seen a cartridge that was lighter than 6g. I suppose it’s possible that this kit was meant to be played with the lid open, or the folks at Thorens weren’t paying attention when they selected the arm (this is a 160 Super and this is the factory installed arm). Later 707's had an additional ring weight that mounted over the main counter weight, which would be helpful here, but my particular arm doesn't have this item.

In any event, the frequency response is rated at 20 – 22,000 Hz. If I’m understanding ‘compliance’ based on the description, it sounds as though the MM stylus/magnet piece moves further and has greater flexibility, which in my mind would make it slower and les detailed because more energy was being expended in the movement itself as opposed to transmitting what’s in the grove. On the other hand, the greater movement might also able to generate greater current, thereby allowing for generally higher outputs? Just guessing.

The other problem I have if I take the tracking force down below 2g is that the tracking bounces out of the grove with almost any footfall, even with the sprung TT (the springs are in good condition and adjusted properly).

SO, I guess the question really is, given my tone arm, warts and all, what would be a good cartridge? Sounds like I’ve got to go with a low mass unit and that D103 is not my puppy.

Phew! And I though I was asking a simple question.