Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

In simple terms regarding compliance, low compliance (stiff suspension) cartridges like the Denon should normally be matched with high mass (heavier) arms. Conversely, high compliance (springy suspension) cartridges should be matched with low mass (lighter) arms. Fortunately, medium matches with medium.

I'm sorry if later posts sounded inconsistent with my first advice but I did not originally realize you would be using the 707. For that reason, I changed direction on you. Don't worry, we all have a learning curve.

But I am bothered by your statement that you're trying to adjust VTF (vertical tracking force) at 6 grams and your counterweight is far back on it's stub. First off, 6 grams is very heavy - a typical range would be 1.0 to 2.0 g., or 2.5 at most, with modern cartridges. Second, moving your counterweight toward the back will lighten the tracking force (remember childhood experience on a teeter-totter). I believe something is drastically wrong from your description. I suggest before asking any more questions you research cartridge set up on the A'gon, Vinyl Asylum, and Vinyl Engine. Again, good luck.

I was assuming you the 6 grams was referring to the weight of the cartridge, not the VTF. Is that correct?

In case you are confused, VTF for the Shure M97xE should be set for 1.25 grams. Cartridge weight is 6.6 grams.

Right, sorry if that wasn't clear. As stated by Pryso, the M97xe weighs about 6 grams, with effective tracking force recommended (in the package anyway) at 1.25 - 2.0g with the brush down. I'd been running it a little heavy at about 2.75g with the brush down. I've borrowed a scale from a fellow A-Goner a couple of times to test this, as well as a setup disk for proper angle. I did the VTA visually. The problem I have with the counterweight is that in order to get the tracking force down below 2g as recommended, I have to really turn the counterweight out pretty far to the point where its hitting the cover when the needle hits the dead wax. This is why I've been running it heavy. This does seem odd though, as I don't think I've ever seen a cartridge that was lighter than 6g. I suppose it’s possible that this kit was meant to be played with the lid open, or the folks at Thorens weren’t paying attention when they selected the arm (this is a 160 Super and this is the factory installed arm). Later 707's had an additional ring weight that mounted over the main counter weight, which would be helpful here, but my particular arm doesn't have this item.

In any event, the frequency response is rated at 20 – 22,000 Hz. If I’m understanding ‘compliance’ based on the description, it sounds as though the MM stylus/magnet piece moves further and has greater flexibility, which in my mind would make it slower and les detailed because more energy was being expended in the movement itself as opposed to transmitting what’s in the grove. On the other hand, the greater movement might also able to generate greater current, thereby allowing for generally higher outputs? Just guessing.

The other problem I have if I take the tracking force down below 2g is that the tracking bounces out of the grove with almost any footfall, even with the sprung TT (the springs are in good condition and adjusted properly).

SO, I guess the question really is, given my tone arm, warts and all, what would be a good cartridge? Sounds like I’ve got to go with a low mass unit and that D103 is not my puppy.

Phew! And I though I was asking a simple question.

2.75g is not "a little heavy." It is grossly overweight. In any case, sounds like the later addition of that extra ring weight is the ticket. Perhaps you could improvise something to that effect. This may well serve you regardless of what cartridge you spring for.

Your interpretation of the MM compliancy issue is incorrect. The amount the cantilever moves is dependent on the groove, not the compliancy. The high compliancy of a MM is offset by the higher mass of the magnet. This high moving mass is what makes MMs not as detailed as their MC brethren. The coils on a MC are much lower mass than the magnets of the MM thus making them less sluggish. In addition, low output MCs use less coils with less mass, making them even more responsive and thusly more refined. This is why people go to great lengths to accommodate the very low outputs of these cartridges. There are, of course, other mitigating factors. The ring magnets of the Transfiguration carts, for instance, very closely coupled to very small, low impedance coils, have quite healthy outputs, thus providing the best of both worlds.

It sounds like from your tracking issues that you may need to address your table mounting. A good wall mount shelf could help.