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Project Debut III vs. Music Hall MMF 5?

Hello All,

I am setting up my first turntable. I’m looking to spend $600 - $1,200 all told between a turntable, phono preamp, cartridge, etc. preamp (My receiver, a NAD 720 bee, does not have a phono preamp).

I am considering the “Project Debut III” ($299) with the “Tube Box SE” ($549) or “Tube Box II” ($349) this was the set-up recommended to me by what seems like an excellent hi-fi shop in Boston with a very knowledgeable staff. However, the Project Debut III was the only table they had in my price range.

A friend of mine has the Music Hall MMF 7, which sounds amazing to me but is out of my price range. I was told that Music Hall and Project are made by the same people or in the same factory, or something like that, so I’m wondering if the Music Hall tables are basically the same family of turntable as the Project but a step up in quality. I would be happy to pay a little more for a table like the music hall mmf 5 ($629) over the Project, but have not had the chance to listen to listen and compare tables.

So, will the extra $300+ for the MMF 5 mean much better sound than the Project Debut III)? If so, I am happy to pay it. If I go with the Project, does it make sense to spend more on a phono pre-amp (the Tube Box SE or Tube Box II) than the actual turntable?

Since purchasing a semi decent sound system a few months ago I can’t stop listening to my collection of recordings. What a difference! I had no idea. I’m looking forward to starting in on the vinyl. Thanks for your advice.

-Bruno
bruno1
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
How about a Rega P2 ($500) with Bellari VP129 preamp ($249) or the Vincent phono stage (only $149 from http://www.audioadvisor.com? The Regas have an enviable track record for reliability and long-term presence in the market.

Project and Music Hall TTs are both made in the Project factory in the Czech Republic, but by different designers and to different specifications. I believe they both share the Project tonearms, however. The Project Debut is priced about the same as the Music Hall MMF-2 ($300-ish), but you may want to consider another TT rep'd by Music Hall, the Goldring GR1.2. Lists at $450, but can often be found for a bit less.

For the same price range, however, you can get a Technics SL1200 or SL1210 with much better speed and pitch accuracy, build quality, rigidity, materials, and ergonomics. Don't believe the high-end kool-aid about DD being noisy. The Technics DDs are really quiet. The tonearm is old school (S-shaped w/detachable universal headshell), but is rugged, built to microscopically close tolerances, and can be further improved with an after-market fluid damper.
mechans
3,048 posts
 
Agree that Direct drive is not noisy In fact the real differences I can hear are vanishingly small between very high end TT's and normal people TTs are the isolation from the enviroment. That means a higher mass dampening plinth and solid support and the cartridge choice. The very extended, detailed highly amplified low out put Moving Coil cartridge sound is not snake oil. It does require a very silent background or noise floor all along the chain. The phono stage, the possible step up transformer and preamp output must be good or else you will hear ever mote of dust. I can tell you it's much easier to get the better MMF-5s more massive platter plinth and it comes all set up with a reasonable but only OK Goldring moving magnet cartridge. Avoid the Bellari I have heard it is plagued by hum issues. A tube phono stage means really silent tubes, most tubes are somewhat noisy with the MM you may not hear it. It is safer to pick a simple SS stage. YMMV. I own an MMF-5 and a VPI and some others tHe only MC I have is on the VPI I have spent a fortune buying good tubes for the phono gain. I might recommend a good vintage table direct drive and all or a more recent Denon DD with the DL 103. BTW Vincent is actually OEM Sheng YA it's not German.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

05-22-07: Mechans
Agree that Direct drive is not noisy In fact the real differences I can hear are vanishingly small between very high end TT's and normal people TTs are the isolation from the enviroment. That means a higher mass dampening plinth and solid support and the cartridge choice. ... It is safer to pick a simple SS stage. YMMV. ... I might recommend a good vintage table direct drive and all or a more recent Denon DD with the DL 103.
Sounds like going low output moving coil raises the stakes significantly, making vibration isolation, noise from all sources, and hum-free gain critical. So at the price Bruno's talking about, it's simpler with a higher rate of success to go with high output mc or mm with a good phono stage for that level of gain.

The Denon 500 DD or a Technics SL 12x0 is a great place to start, as they all have very solid and rigid plinths, slick ergonomics, rugged build quality, and close tolerances. A detachable headshell is nice to have too, especially for beginners.

The Technics definitely benefits from some sort of isolation platform, but this can be done very cheaply with an Ikea butcher block cutting board ($25) and some Vibrapods or Mapleshade Iso-Blocks ($24/set of 4 for either).

For a well-regarded SS phono stage, you could go with a Creek OBH-18 ($250), Parasound V-Phono ($150), NAD ($129), Cambridge Audio 640P ($189), or Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE ($399). Of these the NAD and Cambridge do LOMC. The next model up Creek (OBH-15) also does MC at $450.

You'd need an MC pre-amp for the Denon 103. OTOH, you could get one of the good MM stages and use a Denon DL110 or DL160. Teaming one of those Denons with the Slee should create an interesting soundstage.
mikeadan
20 posts
 
you are not comparing apples to apples you need to look at the pro-jec expression which is 499 vs the music hall 5. both come preloaded with a cartridge. if you do either go with the speed box for $99 also, and the tube box 2 for $349. if you have extra funds you can upgrade the the tube box se but i noticed a huge improvement with the speed box and you can swith speed with the push of a button not to mention better sounding music with better controll.
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