Magnetization & Demagnetization any conclusions?

I asked Mapleshade about this very question and am posting the very interesting answer

Dear Stanley,

Walker's Talisman, like all demagnetizing devices (i.e. Bedini, Furutech, etc.), attempts to address the same problem as our Ionoclast, that is, the problem of static build up. I used super-powerful demagnetizers on my CDs for years--until my experiments showed that the demagnetizers are only an indirect way of dealing with the static problem, rather than a direct antidote for a magnetic problem that turned out to be non-existent.
Contrary to what the designers of demagnetizers usually claim, our experiments showed that there are NO significant ferrous (and therefore magnetizable) traces on CDs or LPs. So why do the demagnetizers have a slightly beneficial effect on the sound of CDs or LPs? Unbeknownst to their designers, they work because magnetic fields have the ability to move (and spread out) the "clumps" of static charge that build up on surface of the disc's plastic. It is the static (and its attendant electrostatic fields), not the non-existent magnetic charges, that degrade the sound of CDs and LPs.
Note that a magnetic field has NO ability to neutralize a static charge. Magnetic fields can only force clumps of static to move--and, in the process of moving, to spread out and become less concentrated. That spreading out lowers and smooths out the local concentrations of the electrostatic field caused by the static clumps. But magnetic forces can never change the TOTAL static energy stored on a CD or LP. That's why the beneficial effects of demagnetizers are always fairly weak.
To actually neutralize the static clumps on a disc can only be done by introducing charged particles (that is, ions) of the opposite charge. This is exactly how industrial static neutralizers (for instance, those on all electronic chip production lines) work: they blow streams of air charged with high concentrations of both plus and minus ions over the moving chips on the line. Any charged static clump on the chips will immediately start attracting ions of the opposite sign--and will keep on attracting them until the clump has totally neutralized itself with opposite charge ions. The air stream's neutralizing ions (i.e., charged molecules of air) are generated by electrodes creating high voltage (10,000 to 50,00 volt) discharges.
That's exactly how our Ionoclast works: every trigger squeeze causes a small internal piezo-electric generator to generate a 30,000 to 50,000 volt spark discharge across the two electrodes in the tip of the Ionoclast, a plus discharge on the downstroke and a minus discharge on the release stroke. Thus, there's a sizable cloud of plus and minus ionized air molecules created around the spark gap--and, by moving the Ionoclast tip across the surface of the CD or LP, you trail this cloud over every static clump and the disc becomes 100% neutralized.
The proof of the pudding is in the listening test. Take a CD that's charged with lots of static and listen to one minute of it. Then treat it with the Talisman or Bedini or Furutech. Listen again and you'll hear some improvement. Now neutralize it (both sides) with our Ionoclast. You'll hear at least an additional three times the improvement you heard with the Talisman!
Curiously enough, if you Ionoclast-neutralize a CD, listen to it, then re-treat it afterwards with a Talisman or Bedini or Furutech, you'll hear that the demagnetizers make the re-treated disc sound just a bit WORSE than the Ionoclast-neutralized disc. I am baffled to find an explanation for this, but the effect is quite repeatable.
If you need further clarification or detail, feel free to call me at 410 867-7543.

Pierre


On Jan 4, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Stanley Green wrote:

Does your Ionocast and the Walker Talisman do the same thing?

Thanks,but if my hair starts to fall out I know who to blame it on! -:)
Best.

This discussion is interesting enough that I've spoken to both a plastics chemist that I've know and worked with since 1979, and a physicist that I've know for over 20 years who has helped me with my product lines. They both indicate the same thing that Pierre Sprey has stated.

Having never used any of the demagnitizing tools I can't comment on what they do based on personal experience. However, I've used the Ionoclast myself for several years. I bought it because my Milty quit working. I can say with a great deal of certainty that the Ionoclast is better than the Milty and is about half the price.

Jim Pendleton
Osage Audio Products, LLC

Typical marketing spin from Mapleshade. "Don't buy their stuff, it doesn't work. Buy Mapleshade's stuff."

I'm sorry, but if they're claiming demag'ing is manipulating static they are the one's who have missed the mark. Again, this does nothing for static. Your LPs will still attract dust. Mapleshade is stating that there thingy is meant to address static, which means you'll need to use it over and over again, just like a Zerostat. And, yes, I bet I can go back with a magnetizer and mess things up. That's just re-introducing a magnetic field to the vinyl. No different than adding or removing magnetism to a screwdriver.

Go back a read the link I posted from Furutech. They claim to have measured the magnetic field in LPs. I demag, I hear an improvement. That's enough for me to accept that the theory has merit. I didn't say proved, just that it has merit.

I'm suggesting to not buy any of the "audiophile" magnets. That's just spending more money needlessly to get the same results as a much cheaper demag'ing product. We do enough unnecessary spending in this hobby as it is. But in the end, it is your money.

Try it, don't try it. But as Doug and Mothra caution, keep it well away from from your cartridge.

Hi Jim,

Love those cleaning solutions!

I always thought this demag concept was more audiophile snake-oil and never gave it any serious consideration. My mind was changed when Doug and Paul gave a demonstration of the results. I was impressed with the difference but still not willing to fork out even $200 for a Talisman. Thanks to some research by Paul, the device in use is under $100 and I think you can score bulk tape erasers for even less on e-bay.

Again, if this were simply manipulating static charges I should be able to rub a demag'ed lp on my cat and make the playback change. Or simply sliding them in and out of their jackets in the frigid weather here in New England is plenty static enough to affect a change. But it doesn't. I should be able to hold the lp in my hands and touch a ground, or better yet touch the ground with the lp, and remove the effects. Again, it doesn't happen. I've not been doing this as long as Doug but I do agree that the effect of demag'ing does not seem to go away even after a few months. The static is always there, especially when the humidity levels are down around 20%. I don't believe that the static charges built up on vinyl are strong enough to have an effect on the magnetic field orientation, however small it is in an lp. Static charges are surface charges.

I believe we all know how much better things sound when static is controlled. But all you need do is remove what ever static safeguards are in place and you will hear the detrimental effects. This is not true of the demag effects. You can disconnect the ground wire, not use the Zerostat (which, BTW, I don't use any anti-static device other than grouding), whatever. You will still hear the effect of demag'ing.

It would also make sense that the strength of the demag'ing tool will decide how well, or maybe how long, the magnetic fields stay re-oriented after a treatment. Maybe why the Talisman needs to be used over and over.

The claim is that the particles are in the pigment, not in the plastics. I'm curious if any of your contacts are familiar with the compounds used to color LPs? I'd be interested in hearing feedback from your contacts on the claims in the Furutech white paper. If we accept for the moment that the pigment is the key to this, I would expect that non-colored vinyl should not respond to the demag at all. I think I have a clear lp somewhere. If so I'll give it a try.