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An Audiophile Goal

An Audiophile Goal.

I have been grappling with the perceived problem of listening to LPs at the same volume setting, for every LP. The original post that I addressed this problem with is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1179765549&openmine&zzAcoustat6&4&5#Acoustat6. It was to discuss my idea of playing back all LPs at the same volume setting regardless of type of music or recording etc. To say it was a debacle would be an understatement to say the least. The discussion did not start the way I thought it would and went quickly downhill from there. I would like to put that behind me and realize why it was so controversial and failed as a discussion. As I originally said this idea was new to me and it took such a long time to coagulate my thoughts about this and the reasons why it works. The answer is obvious now. I didn't have an audiophile goal.

I got the answer from reading the recent post about J. Gordon Holts article in Stereophile which was discussed on Audiogon. .
The reference being about an audiophile goal in one of the posts. This was my thought, myself and audiophiles in general don't have an audiophile goal (actually, I do have several but I will stick to the topic). It seems that no one can agree on a goal, its all so subjective some say, I like it loud, I like it quiet, I like a lot of bass, I like imaging and on and on. This is fine, that is why we all buy different speakers and equipment. It comes down to you can't measure music. You have to hear it, does it make your toe tap? Can you listen at a low level? Is the tweeter too bright? Is the Bass too loud? Ad nauseum. And there we go again are my toes tapping enough? What is low level listening? Is the bass loud enough for hip hop but too loud for a violin concerto?

I found myself an audiophile goal and an easy one at that, its 20-20k hz. Yeah, you like it too. Right? You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat (as possible). I said I needed a goal! I know there is more to it than that, but undeniably it is a goal. Now if I go with a test reference of 83db at 1000hz from my test LP this will be an excellent level for dynamics, noise levels and acuteness of hearing. All that is required is 1000hz at 83db from the test LP and all other freq matching this level, So 10,000hz and 5,000hz along with 500,100, 80, 50 and 30hz with all of the freq in between at the specified level of 83db will all be played back off of the test LP at the same level or as close as possible as can be obtained within a systems speakers and equipment and rooms limitations. Find this level and you leave your volume control set to this position for every LP you play. Pretty simple actually.

The original idea came to me slowly over the last three to four years, though I struggled with the quandary for as long as I can remember and I have yet to hear anyone say, sure you don't do that? I thought we all did. All because I didn't have an audiophile goal. Now I find out that perhaps even J. Gordon Holt may not have an audiophile goal, even one as simple as this. The best thing is now I get to listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting with its attendant qualities of dynamics, constant noise levels, unchanging freq response and a host of other benefits which come along for the ride.

I knew it was wrong to be changing volume levels and bass levels for different LPs. Jumping up in the middle of a song to hear the bass drums or turning it down for a quiet violin solo and doing the same for complete albums. It was insane, I always felt like I was in junior high school cranking it up for the cool parts. But every one does it, so did I. I was missing that audiophile goal.

I enjoy listening to my Lps, many of which I still have from my early high school days and everything in between which amounts to about 2500 quality LPs. As a now confirmed audiophile, now that I have a realistic and perhaps more importantly a measurable goal, I could start figuring out which albums sound good and which do not. It was easy, every LP is played back at the same gain level (volume control setting if you will) and guess what you hear? Every Lp for what it actually sounds like.

Another benefit is that every system you hear is played back to the same standard from the same test LP, perhaps it could even be used at audio shows where every room is played back at this reference setting. If you choose not to listen at the standard then it is stated at the door that reference setting is either higher or lower than the reference. This way if you choose not to abuse your hearing in a room that is 6db above the reference standard you are warned before entering.

And all of this because J Gordon Holt didn't have an audiophile goal.

If you can listen to one Lp at a certain level whether it be a high or low level why can't you listen to any other record at that level?

Just a few thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob
acoustat6
dcstep
1,518 posts
 
Exactly Raul. Most audiophiles don't realize how much intermodulation distortion they're introducing in a 2-channel system due to poor speaker placement. When I finally the had my speakers properly set using the Sumiko Master Set method, the volume control went up 20 to 33% over previous levels. Amazingly you could now have a conversation without raising your voice with 90+dB peaks and average level at around 87dB.

Of course any distortion hurts. After my speaker set I improved my cabling, minimizing one more source of low level distortion. Given the opportunity, I now listen for several hours at a time with NO fatigue.

Dave
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Raul, Thanks for your reply. I never said mine was perfect, and don't dis' (disrespect) the Hagerman! :) You are correct though, we always/should be looking for something better, but I am a very content audiophile now. With a statement like that, they could take away my official Audiophile membership card!

You said,"Of course that your goal is a desired one but alone could means nothing, that goal have to come along with very low distortions ( any kind ), noise, colorations, right tonal/natural balance, high resolution, etc, etc."

You could have it just the other way around and have low distortion and no volume or have good mid range tone but no bass etc. etc..

You are correct, that it is all important, low distortion, noise and with good tone and resolution etc.. No matter where you loose contact with the info it is gone forever till you fix that problem, and not with a bandaid down the line. I never said that was the only goal, but I believe it is the place to start. But how do we get there? By determining a correct volume setting for LP playback that allows a well recorded LP to shine and let the others fail.

Again, just so we dont have a missunderstanding here, I never change the volume control setting for any LP! It is set at position 18 on my stepped attenuators and that is where it stays except when I am changing LPs IE: lifting and lowering the tonearm, the volume needs to be turned down to prevent any potentially nasty sounds. This means that my system is able to play back the "quietest" LPs and the "loudest" ones without changing volume levels for any LP or any cut on an LP.

This as you can well understand, allows every LP to sound as it is recorded, mastered and pressed. If an LP is loud it plays "loudly" if it is recorded/mastered low it plays "quietly". Do you agree?

If it has noisy vinyl it sounds noisy but if the next LP has quiet vinyl it is quiet. If the album has pops and clicks they are reproduced at the same level for every LP. Do you agree?

Now, I just don't agree with the idea that every LP has a sweet spot volume level that you need to find with your volume control. IE; turn it up for one LP and turn the volume control down for the next one down. I find this is wrong for many reasons. I also find that this is the biggest detriment/problem for setting up a system. And that you will have great difficulty setting up a system if you continue to do this.

Raul, how do you determine the correct volume level for each LP?

Bob

acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hello Raul, you said "Unfortunatelly the whole audio recording/reproduction is not perfect so we can't have a precise number ( like the 83db ) for all, we can/could be around that number that seems to me has sense or at least more that your flat frequency ( alone ) goal.'

I never said that flat response was my only goal. I have said it is a goal and that yes it is difficult and perhaps not even desired (100%). My reason to say this is that it is more important to achiev a desired freq response rather than sheer volume! And that at a reference playback level the ability to achieve this is the goal, without blowing up your system or your ears. All the while getting a better freq response and dynamics within a certain volume level that is pleasing to your ears and realistic for LP playback.

Raul said,
"Btw and looking more in deep to your phono stage I can say that the manufacturer specification for the inverse RIAA eq deviation: +.- 1db from 25 to 25khz is really on a not desired side because that +,- 1db frequency deviation ( every time that ocur through the RIAA wide frequency response ) makes a degradation/coloration to the recording/cartridge signal because does not affect a single frequency but almost three octaves due that the RIAA is a curve not linear, the other subject here is the fact that the manufacturer specs start at 25hz not 20hz that is the RIAA standard and this means that below 25hz the deviation is bigger than 1db and this fact means that what you are hearing from 60hz an down is really worst.
I know that you like what you have but what really are you hearing?, certainly not what is on the recording.
Facts like this one goes against your goal, the good news is that you always can/could improve about."

I say, there you go, dissing my Hagerman Trumpet again. :)This discussion is not about my equipment. or my system at all. It is about an idea. Perhaps dare I say a new way to hear things just like Galileo or Darwin..., OH CRAP did I say that again!

Yes, I realise my system sucks compared to most here, but it does not matter what my system consists of, some of us are here to get the most out of their system and this is the way I see to achieve that goal.

Bob
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi Raul, you said "Dear friends: One parrameter that is very important for we can set-up the SPL in our systems ( with out ears fatigue )is how much distortion produce the system, higher distortions means lower SPL so less distortions higher SPL.
Obviously that there is a limit where our " ears " are comfortable and this is singular for each one of us, but that 83db is a good point to start."

I say absolutly! But say your system is only capable of low distortion up to a certain volume level, why exceed that? And if it is capable of playing up to 125db do we want to listen there anyway?

Raul, You said you have a 1000hz reference signal at a specified level, when you do your in room freq response graph are all other freq at this same level?

Bob
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rauliruegas
13,048 posts
 
Dear Bob: I agree with your two: " do you agree? ", but that happen at almost any SPL!!!

I posted about the deviations on your phono stage to have a reference that that flat frequency goal ( almost desired one ) is a very complex one, I'm in favor of that goal and accuracy to the recording with the whole factors that involve that accuracy to the recording for obtain enjoy and pleasure when we hear/heard our audio systems or any audio system.

As you can read in what I posted I like you heard/hear my audio system at almost one SPL and I change when " that " ( any ) LP was recorded at out of standard recording levels. If you read again you can " see " that my audio system ( with out any previous measure SPL set-up ) SPL set-up almost coincide with your ( start point ) 83 db at 1khz: mine 84 db ( I made this measure to fast,, so maybe is nearer your number. Btw, some years ago I made the measure of my room-system and was very evenly through the audio frequency, today I heard better than on those days, maybe is better. )

I already posted that that 83 db SPL at " your seat " is a very good point to start but what factors will define that you will be satisfied with that SPL?, extremely complex too many factors to take it as a rule, for example: two similar room-audio systems with the same model speakers but with a " little " different speaker specification: sensitivity, one 86 db at one meter and the other 90 db on that same efficiency factor.
Do you think that you can/could be satisfied obtaining ( the same for both ) that 83 db at your seat position?, well maybe yes and maybe not depending on your amplifier ( between other things ) and if that amplifier mantain his distortions level at any measure current demanding. In our example we are " asking " more than double watts at the amplifier with the 86 db efficiency speaker and I'm almost sure that the distortion of that amplifier will be higher in this case and over the time from listening to this speaker ( against the other ) the ear/brain fatigue will be higher and maybe you have to lower that SPL. This is only an example with only one factor in " game " ( well not one but two. ), imagine hundred of factors that influence what we are hearing in our audio system and you can see that that subject is complex!!!! for say the least.

Anyway, I repeat, I agree with you about that 83 db ( at seat position ) start point is: welcome!!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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